Episode 144 – Deb – mum

Welcome to our podcast series with Surrogacy Australia. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen and in turn for helping us spread awareness and appreciation for surrogacy. I’m your host Anna McKie and these recordings are from a regular webinar series that I run. You can find upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org. During the one hour webinars, I will walk you through the surrogacy process in Australia and you can type in questions for us to answer. My co-hosts have all done surrogacy in Australia

00:44
and they alternate between surrogates, gay dads and straight mums. This episode featuring mum through surrogacy Deb is one from the archives and was recorded in June 2023. Deb and her husband from Canberra became parents to their daughter Hannah in December 2019. Hannah was carried by Rachel, who is the wife of Deb’s brother and they all live in Queensland. They have two older boys through fostering, but it was very long journey to parenthood.

01:12
with three stillbirths, miscarriages and a previous surrogate. You can hear from Deb’s surrogate Rachel in the previous episode number 143. A couple of points to mention, we had some technical difficulties in this webinar and you’ll notice in one section when the conversation didn’t flow nicely. Deb was talking about a challenging time with their previous surrogate and then I segued into a question. It sounds impersonal that I changed the topic, but from memory I think Deb’s screen froze.

01:42
We come back to that topic of conversation though, so you do hear how it ends. Deb also mentions that she induces lactation, so she was able to breastfeed her daughter Hannah. If you’d like to learn more about inducing lactation, I have done a webinar with three mums through surrogacy who have done the same thing. You can find that on our YouTube channel or episode 50 of this podcast series. I hope you enjoy this episode.

02:06
So we’ve got some beautiful photos here that Deb has shared with us of her surrogacy journey. So Deb, obviously you’re pregnant as a team in this photo. So we’re going to go from the pregnancy onwards, I suppose, through your journey. And then we’ll go back to the beginning and hear about what brought you to surrogacy. So as we go through these photos, tell me who’s in them and what’s happening in each of them. This was, I can’t remember exactly if I’d flown for a scan or if it was when Rachel was told to stop work because she was going to go into labor early. I’m trying to remember which one it was. It was quite late in the pregnancy.

02:36
because Rachel is amazing and loses weight during pregnancy rather than gaining. So she looked absolutely awesome. And yeah, we’re just at church together and just wanted to have some nice photos together. Big beaming smiles on both of your faces there. That sums it up, I reckon. And then some maternity photos. Yes, yes. So we managed to sneak these in because Hannah decided to wait after I flew up to Cairns a month earlier than originally planned. Then the rest of my family came to join me. So those hands are my

03:06
to um foster boys and they look quite little there. Oh, they’re so tiny. Those hands. um Rachel’s hands and their hands just on there on the little sister. So and that is a harmony ball. You can see there as well. Rachel had during the whole pregnancy, we got that from America and it just has a little chime in it so that the baby had a constant sound. And then she gave that to me at birth so that I had it around my neck so Hannah could hear the sounds still. Yeah, it’s beautiful. We, our team had one too.

03:36
that ability to connect baby with some familiar noises. Yeah, lovely. That’s a beautiful thing for the boys to be involved in and see, you know, their sister growing in her tummy and what a beautiful photo for everybody to have to look back on. Yeah, yeah, because like we were down in Canberra and Rachel was up in Cannes so we didn’t get to see her very often during the pregnancy but there was a lot of video calls and things but yeah this was the first time I think the boys actually got to their hands on. Yeah, it was very special. And then we come to birth, hey, birthday!

04:05
Talk us through that, it’s big emotions for everybody. Oh yeah, huge. Rachel. Longest labour, unfortunately. I think some of it was because we were doing it privately and they wanted to monitor more and didn’t have her go for walks as much and that kind of thing. felt it.

04:22
I felt it was a bit of a let down for her that she didn’t get to do it more naturally. The end result was Hannah coming out. My husband was, so it was Rachel, my brother and me in the room with the midwife and I got to help deliver Hannah. And my husband was just outside the birth suite, but it was only a small bit of suite. So he was very close by. Absolutely. He’s there on birthday. Just might not be there down the business end, just as it happens. Yeah. And that other photo of my husband with Hannah was very shortly after the

04:52
when we got into our room and she just curled up and had a nap on daddy. That’s beautiful and it’s lovely to see you know your husband our partners as they’re holding their their babies too. The children that you’ve tried for for such a long time for her to finally be there in his arms. Yeah. And then I think we move on to some photos of life going on. So some beautiful newborn photos you had done. Yes yes and we had I can briefly show you this. Yes this is good timing so beforehand as Deb and I were chatting I could see some photos on her wall behind us and so she’s got this beautiful photo

05:22
here. Was this done on the same time? Yes, yes it was. That’s the whole family. You’re holding Hannah and Hubby, Rachel there and your two foster boys. That’s the whole family. So that lives up in your lounge room? Yes, hangs in my lounge room and there’s another one of Hannah with the two boys together, cuddling her and giving her a kiss. Rachel and I both had access to all those photos so she’s got ones that’s just her with Hannah as well which was important. But yeah, we were so wrecked. I’m shocked at how nice the picture looks.

05:49
photographers do a good job. It’s nine days old I think. Nine, ten, yeah. We had to do it before we flew back down to Canberra at 11 days old. Which might be this photo here. It is, yes that’s, that is me trying to figure out that swing. Yeah getting on a plane back to Canberra. That was all five of you going back together? Yes. Yes. And then, and so it began into, on your own then? Yeah we flew back into the fires in Canberra which was not pleasant and then shortly after was lockdown. Yes. That probably, so that’s you at year

06:19
you’re being on some time on maternity leave that probably threw in some changes that weren’t expected. Yes, yes, homeskilling, homeschooling my boys whilst trying to feed Hannah and yeah, it’s a bit of a mess. See, another thing we could come back to, because you induced lactation, is that right? I did, yes. Yes, we come back to that. People type in questions if you’ve got questions about inducing lactation. And so then photos here of your little girl growing up. Yes, yes, we got those special onesies made, my awesomeness from Arnie Rachel and I gave one to Rachel and we kept one.

06:47
Hannah’s got that in her memory box. Yeah, just her growing up. And it’s beautiful to see those sorts of things, those mementos that different surrogacy teams keep. What big blue eyes she has. Yeah, that’s like birth and one year old. That is, yeah. And the blue eyes have stayed. So yes, she’s got gorgeous blue eyes. Lovely.

07:04
We believe from both both sides grandparents had blue eyes. Yeah, right It’s interesting my kids and my three donor kids all have blue eyes, but I don’t know um On my side of the family not but it must be recessive gene in there. So yeah, I’m brown Eye brown eye brown hair and she’s blonde and blue-eyed. Yes amazing And then was this a birthday party? That was her second birthday. Yes. Yes As they start to enjoy things a bit more. Yeah, it’s just a Christmas one and she loved going on hikes with daddy in the backpack uh

07:33
Is that what that was? Right, at first I thought it was a highchair but no, it’s a worn backpack, is it? high-flying backpack, yeah, yeah. They’re amazing, love them. Great, and she’s all rugged up there. Was that in Canberra or overseas in the UK? No, that’s Canberra. That’s Canberra. Yeah, so you’re used to cold weather.

07:49
different here. Yeah, different cold, isn’t it? Yes. And then here she is more recent photos. Yes, yeah, that towards end of last year, daycare photo and that’s on our, we did a trip around Australia, yeah, one of the beaches, Kangaroo Island. was, yeah, she the beach. Yeah, does she? Wonderful. Kids love their water often, don’t they? Right, was there some beautiful photos that we’ve shared there? Interesting that, so the three kids in your house, I was thinking this just before, none of them

08:15
grew in your tummy. And so that’s a really normal thing in your household to not necessarily be growing your mum’s tummy. Yes, yes. So they’ve all got different tummy mummies. Hannah knows her birth story. She talks about the tummy mummy. She talks about kicking Aunty Rachel in the kidneys. She talks about pulling all down the doctor’s leg and on her foot when she was born.

08:35
She knows her story. That’s great. And I think for the IPs listening her at the very beginning of their journey, hearing what it can look like, that you just tell the story, you tell the things that have happened and then the kids learn that and then amazing when you start to hear it back from them.

08:49
And but as we go back to the beginning of your story there, you did have babies, didn’t you? There were some stillbirths and miscarriages along the way. yeah, tell us a bit of your story, Deb. I know it’s hard to capture years of what’s happened in a short time, but give us a bit of a summary as to what brought you to surrogacy in the first place. Well, surrogacy was the furthest from my mind when we first started trying. I’m one of five kids. All my aunts and uncles have four or five kids, each except for one didn’t even have a thought that we’d have problems.

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pregnancy was natural, just all went wrong at 21 weeks and then from then on I just had trouble getting pregnant, had IVF cycles, was given misdiagnosis.

09:32
Then another one saying, Oh, you have to be in kleksane because you had a clotting issue. So maybe that’s early miscarriage and then got told to do something different again. And we had embryos from when we were doing our first lot of IVF in 2009. And that’s what Hannah’s from. She was an amazing embryo. would sort of hatching embryo they said, which was the best you could get. And she took, and it was the only transfer we had to do with Rachel. But yeah, before that, it was years of trying us trying and my body just not, not doing what

10:02
was meant to and I kept having membranes rupture even with intervention with sutures with antibiotics with klexanil. was just a bit of a mess. And so we paused for a while and went, we can’t do this. And we actually had someone offer one of my husband’s childhood friends offered, but she didn’t know that much about it. Just thought, oh yeah, I could do it for you. Hadn’t investigated, it would have been good to have.

10:22
more information for her. In the end, she withdrew because it just wasn’t right. And then we just sat and waited and figured out what to do. And we had another person offer who was a church friend. we went through all the process, but we were doing all this on our own. We were kind of doing this in the dark. We had someone that we knew that had sort of done the surrogacy, but it was in a different state. It was a while ago, so the process is…

10:48
changed. We didn’t have recommended stations for psychologists and that kind of thing, so we got sent to someone that did way too much, was asking way too much, did a 60 page report. It was ridiculous. She shouldn’t have accepted the case, actually, professionally. And we got all the way up to the point of transfer with her when she had an injury and everything ground to a halt. We’re just going to sidestep and answer the question that’s come through, that somebody thanks you for sharing your story.

11:18
they wondered were you ever concerned that baby Rachel wouldn’t bond with you or recognise you when she was born? I think you might always have that little bit in the background because you didn’t get to carry and also because I was very anxious. I was quite stressed because particularly around that second trimester because I had three second trimester losses. So not being near Rachel during the second trimester was actually a blessing. I was afraid that I would be too overbearing on her and just let my anxiety get too much. I actually saw a counsellor through the fertility clinic.

11:48
to help me with coping, to help me think about ways to deal with it and to bond. What really helped with the bonding though was also the feeding. So inducing lactation really helped because I had to have her there to help get that milk going even more. yeah, inducing lactation is a bit of a marathon.

12:05
but it was the best thing for her and me, even though it was tough and I didn’t have a full supply. I got 75 % supply, so that was amazing. That’s a marathon to get there, well done. And what also helped was Rachel and I would talk regularly and I actually recorded a couple of songs of me singing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and Rachel would play it to the baby while the baby was in the womb. So yeah, I think that we tried as best as we could. You don’t know what you’re going

12:35
to do, how are you going to feel until it happens? Like you can only predict so much. I think that’s some good advice for people that it’s okay to be nervous about it. And it’s fantastic to hear you sort some ongoing counseling for you to sort out your thoughts on it and not just offloading it onto your surrogate, but you recognizing what you had been through that you were bringing to it. And it’s okay to have those concerns and then just doing what you can to try and bond as best you can beforehand to have baby familiar with your voice and that sort of thing.

13:04
Harmony Bell helped too as well because it was that familiar sound kind of thing. I think it helped. can’t ask a newborn. No, never know. We can’t go back and ask, do some therapy on them. take us back to where you up to then, having the surrogate from church that you were going through the journey with and then she had an injury. Yes, so she had an injury. She tried, she held on as long as possible. She didn’t.

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didn’t want to disappoint us. So she didn’t tell us I couldn’t do it early on. She was like, just give me time to heal. Give me time to heal. We waited and waited and waited. And in the end we had to say, I talked to her husband and like, no, this is not right. We can’t hold you to your promises. You need to look after yourself and your family. It’s okay. of a couple of weeks or a couple of months we’re talking. It was, was months. It was months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was months. And yeah, she’s still got an ongoing injury and she’s kind of with, she withdrew from.

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everyone. So there was more at play there. So it probably wouldn’t have been best to continue, even though the psychologist said that she could. That would have been a really hard thing as IPs to make that decision really on her behalf to go, it’s not right. And yes, we do want to have another child, but with this person and her health and her family, and what’s that going to bring into the pregnancy? And we don’t want to put that on her. That’s, that’s quite a hard decision to make, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, it was, it was very tough. And that’s why we waited a number of months and then we didn’t really know what

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we were going to do because surrogacy was considered our only option of a healthy pregnancy and that’s from our high risk fertility obstetrician said that to me.

14:37
And that’s why we waited a while and then went, well, you know, there are kids there that need, there’s kids out there that need a family. And that’s why we became foster carers. While we were waiting, we didn’t want someone that we didn’t know. That was, that was our personal choice. We didn’t want some, a surrogate that we didn’t know. We felt that we needed someone that we did know. And a lot of the options just.

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weren’t available. Yeah, people were still having their families and that kind of stuff. So a lot of our friends did, they just weren’t finished their families. They weren’t in the right place. They had medical issues. They didn’t do pregnancy well. We became foster carers and our first placement has stayed forever. um And they’re amazing little boys. They’re tough work, but um

15:18
Yeah, they’re beautiful. so that’s a journey in itself to go through the fostering system and all of the steps and checks in that too. So you’ve, and so you had done that, completed that, had the two boys in your life. And then at some point in time, Rachel, it must’ve come up in conversation. Yeah, had, yeah, Rachel and Rachel and my brother visit. I happened to get the bill for the embryo storage and we just had a little discussion around it and.

15:41
unbeknownst to me, Rachel had been processing this in her head herself personally, been thinking about it and wanted to go away and think about it. So when she went back to Cairns, she talked to my brother and yeah, and they thought this would be something that they could do. And then we happened to fly up a couple of weeks later, I think, or it might’ve been a week later after they were visiting us and…

16:04
Yeah, she offered, well, she actually got my brother to speak to my husband because they didn’t know what my reaction would be. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it shows that the men are quite involved in these things. It’s a team effort to do this. Definitely a team effort. Yes. Yeah. I’m trying to imagine that the questions that the new IPs might be asking is that, yes, your sister-in-law did it for you, but how do you get to that point? And I think essentially you sort of spread the word by the embryo storage came up.

16:34
and you didn’t hide that. was just a discussion. That, we’ve still got embryos, maybe one day the only choice is a surrogate. And so you didn’t directly say, could you beam a surrogate?

16:44
you just bring the conversation up and then just explain your story and then the seeds might be planted. Turns out the seed had already been planted because they have been watching your family journey I imagine. Yes, yes. And so then you were full of excitement and shock and let’s do this, is this going to happen? Wow. Yeah. And so then you navigated, then I guess you talked about it for a bit and then you went into the steps of the counseling and legals. Yeah, I was with a different clinic this time but that was who my m

17:13
Fertility Specialists had switched clinics in the interim years, because it was years between the first offer and Rachel. was nearly, it was three and a half years, I think. Yeah. So you went back to the beginning and then again. But what was helpful was we had embryos, so we didn’t have to wait on that quarantine. We didn’t have to the bill for that. That was helpful. We also had already done the legals. So we went back to the same lawyer and said, okay, let’s redraft this and just changed.

17:41
details that needed to be changed into Rachel’s preferences and our preferences that had changed. It was a lot smoother and it went a lot quicker. So from when she offered, which was the July, we did our transfer in the March. We wanted to do it in February, but the clinic closed down over Christmas was a bit of an interference, which is fine that people have got to have holidays. uh

18:04
Yeah, so we did the transfer in the March and it took and then Hannah was born just under 18 months later. Yeah, she was born in the December from when so from start to finish. Yeah, it was just under 18 months.

18:15
That’s great. And I reckon that’s a fairly common timeframe for a team that already knew each other and had an established relationship and already had embryos. If people often ask me, you know, what’s the timeline? I’d often say two years, but then that extra six months might be the getting to know you or the making of embryos too. So I think your team sounds pretty spot on average then in that sense there. And so then we’ve sort of done parts of the pregnancy there too. Are there any things you’d like to add about the pregnancy there? As you said, you took some notes, either some things that went

18:45
well or some of the struggles that your team had? No, I’ve already mentioned that I was, I was doing some counseling along the way, which was really important. And she was linked with the clinic. So that was really helpful. I even took Hannah along post, post-birth. took Hannah along in a little capsule and we had a couple of sessions, which was really helpful. um Yeah. And I mentioned about all the doctors were a bit limited up in Cairns. So that was a bit frustrating for Rachel’s side of it. And, and because we had to, couldn’t go to public, we had to go private. And that’s why there was a bit more.

19:15
interference. So if you’ve got more flexibility in choices, it’s helpful. But I was able to room in with Rachel. So I roomed in with Rachel. That was good so that she actually helps me with the breastfeeding to start with and that kind of thing. So along with the lives. yeah. I’d done a breastfeeding lactation course, but it’s like as a practitioner, as a nurse, but doing it yourself is very different. You actually do it on the other side.

19:43
Yeah, so it’s all a learning process everything. And just on that I’m sure you know new people listening often have that question. Yes, so how does birth work there? I think from a lot of people I hear if your hospital accommodates it you’re often in rooms next door to each other or that you certainly you know another common question is do you take you know the beginning care of the baby from birth or does the surrogate do it for a couple of days but I’m pretty sure you were on from the get-go then? Yes, I had to keep that milk going because I yeah I’ve been taking meds for four months

20:12
four or five months and pumping for a couple of months as well leading up to it. So as soon as I could get that baby on it was better for me and for her. yeah. And so that and you were happy to be in together for those in the hospital for a little while there because you knew each other so well too. Yeah, yeah, that’s right. We did regular video calls and chats. There’d been emails going back and forth. So we made sure that we were building that relationship along the way and like even

20:41
So then what it was to start with. Yes. It’s a unique thing. You’ve gone through with one of your sister-in-laws here, isn’t it? Yeah. Was there any particular thing that you feel that your team did well that you would like to pass on to others or some of the, some of the challenges that so that we can pass that on so we can learn from that for future journeys? Good question. oh

21:00
Like I think knowing about SASS early on would have been helpful definitely like having that more knowledge because we were doing it kind of honoring in the dark even though and then because we’ve done a surrogacy before and we knew other things that didn’t work we were a lot better the second time around but yeah making sure that you have that support team and then they’re not necessarily people that know both of you if you are a family member.

21:23
so that you can debrief with people that are outside of the family group as well. So we had some good friends and yeah, it was really, really helpful just to talk to them. Like I talked to them about my frustration, just to, I’m someone that just needs to talk it out and then it’s okay. Whereas other people are different. Yeah. Making sure that I had someone at any point in time, I had a number of people that I could call and say, Oh, this is happening. Oh, I’m so anxious. And they would just talk me through saying, yes, you want this, this is how it’s meant to happen. That was really helpful.

21:52
My mum is amazing and she answered day or night and then she could also like pop around and help Rachel because they live very close. My parents were very close so I was actually, they live around the corner from Rachel so I was there with the baby so Rachel could come around and visit after the birth so that was helpful.

22:12
Post-birth, I could have planned that a bit better. It’s hard because we hadn’t done the newborn stuff before because the youngest one of our boys was seven months when they came to live with us. So I’d done the little, the babies thing, but I hadn’t done newborn. So it’s a whole other world. I was just in a bit of shell shock and I could have maybe lent on Rachel a bit more and let her do more because I think she did want to, but she was being careful not to overstep. Yeah, yeah. So it’s that delicate balance if it’s people that you know, and because

22:42
did the handover straight away. It is a daily price to stay around longer as well but I think we flew back because Christmas was coming and I’d been away from home for long enough and just wanted to get home and get settled into our routine. Hanging about a bit longer would have been better I think and we do try and do well COVID messed things up so we couldn’t do as often visits as we wanted to.

23:06
but we do try and do face-to-face visits when we can. Well, it’s a bit harder now that I’m in the UK for my husband’s work. We do video calls when the timing works out and if Hannah wants to send a picture to her auntie, just will take a photo or we’ll do a little video or something like that. Like whenever she wants to, yep, okay honey. And we send.

23:28
send something to Rachel and I make up little photo books as well. Each, well I’ve tried to do it each year, two years kind of got a bit muddled. That’s lovely, I think it sounds like she’s, as you say, you know, sending photos when Hannah mentions it, that clearly Rachel and her family are a part of her life and part of her language. She’s very familiar with her story, so I think that’s a credit to you guys as parents and that you’ve openly talked about that and having very

23:52
visual photos there for her to, you know, regularly see her story. I think that’s what it’s all about. And as a surrogate myself, I can vouch for the fact that how much that would mean to a surrogate to know that it’s just part of your everyday. So it’s that ongoing journey and it keeps evolving. story. Yeah. We had to do a bit of life story work for the boys. So I was like, well, why can’t I do it for Hannah? So yeah, I’m doing it for all three. Yes, beautiful. And I love that’s of my vision that why shouldn’t that be everybody’s story that

24:22
We all ask, what is our story? And that some people have the textbook sort of standard, what the majority do. But I think it’s really powerful for kids to see other families that look like their family. it with seeing other two dad families or knowing that there’s other families that have birth families but then grow up in somebody else’s house or surrogate families too. So yeah, look at you’ve got a beautiful blend of family there through everything. Maybe that’s a good opportunity to ask you that question then. Is that something that you had fears about during pregnancy?

24:52
talk to Rachel about what things she might or might not do and did you have any concerns there? Well we had good discussions beforehand like about termination and that kind of thing, big ones definitely. When it came down to pregnancy and what she wanted to eat, you can’t force someone.

25:10
to eat vegetables every day, multiple times. Like if you feel sick and you are pregnant, you know, eat what you want. And that’s what I would have done. So who am I to force on her? It’s just, you know, try and eat healthy, that kind of thing. And it was just an agreement, but it was just, it’s just a trust that she was not going to do anything to harm the baby. And she wouldn’t have done that. Yeah. she doesn’t have to alcohol. so that was helpful.

25:34
kind of thing. If anything, I hear from some surrogates that they’re often more concerned about a surrogate baby than they often were with their own. They’re feeling like there’s something like this is really important stuff, you know, that’s doing this for somebody else. don’t want anything to go wrong and me to feel like there’s blame or anything like that. surrogates want to see a healthy child born for their friends or family. So they’re often keen to make sure they do their part. Yeah, that’s right.

25:58
Well, as we sort of perhaps, you know, come to the end and wrap it up, Deb, have you got any sort of parting words or advice or anything to pass on to our listeners today? Going down the surrogacy route, it might seem really daunting, but you’ve been through so much to get to that point usually, depending on what your background is, fertility wise, same sex, that kind of thing. You’ve had to go through a lot to get to this point. So that means you’re super strong and surrogacy is really, it’s worth it. And you can have this amazing little person come into your life.

26:27
and you meet some other people that you didn’t realize how amazing they were. Rachel, I’m giving you all. Yeah, yeah, you just get to see how precious life is and what other people are capable of. yeah, sorry, we’ll see. do your research.

26:46
Find what fits for you. Make sure you talk about all your worries, even if they’re a little minuscule with your potential surrogate. Make sure that you have everything open communication. Yeah, hopefully it works out for you. Thank you. That’s beautifully summed up there, Deb. And thank you for being vulnerable and showing your emotions and realizing that the bond that you and Rachel created here in this special project that you did together through your friendship and your family there to bring a life into this world and that her and her family did that for your family.

27:16
It’s a beautiful connection that you guys all have there. Well thank you everyone for joining us. We’ll wrap it up here tonight. We hope you found this webinar useful and helpful as you take the next steps on your journey. Thank you for listening to this episode. To see the beautiful images mentioned, head to our YouTube channel to watch the webinar recording. If you’re looking for more support and potentially connecting with a surrogate or intended parents, head to our website, surrogacyaustralia.org, to check out the resources and to learn more about SASS.

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Please subscribe to this podcast if you found it valuable and share it with someone so they too can benefit from this conversation. Until next time, welcome to the village.