Episode 89 – Mitchell – gay dad

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Thanks for watching!

00:14
Welcome back, or if this is your first time, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series with me, your host Anna McKie. My guest on this episode was a co-host on the regular webinar series that I run. Those one-hour webinars are free and will take you through the surrogacy process in Australia. You will hear from a surrogate or parent and there are opportunities to type in your questions and we will try to answer them. You can find upcoming dates on our website at surr

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This episode is one from the archives, recorded in August 2022, and features Mitchell. Mitchell and Stephen from Brisbane expanded their family when their close friend carried and birthed their little girl Elizabeth in July 2019. Mitchell is a passionate advocate for surrogacy and the promotion of same-sex parents. He has written three children’s books to date – Lizzie’s Day at the Zoo, Lizzie’s Day at the Beach, and Lizzie’s Christmas Day. You can find him on Instagram at

01:14
Gay Brisbane Dad. Mitchell’s husband is lawyer Stephen Page, who is located in Brisbane, and he has helped thousands of parents through both domestic and international surrogacy. Mitchell’s surrogacy journey to fatherhood took about five years, so it just shows that even if you have contacts in the community, there is no guarantee of when baby will arrive. There were road bumps with their egg donor, and two miscarriages before Elizabeth’s birth. I hope you enjoy this episode.

01:42
So we’re joined by Mitchell now, and we’re gonna work through some of his photos and hear about his story. So as Mitchell and I were talking beforehand, obviously there’s a lot involved to get to this point of being with a, your surrogate, her pregnant belly. Tell us how far along Mitchell we, as a team in the pregnancy here, or what’s going on in this photo? Because our surrogate had gestational diabetes in the-

02:03
Elizabeth was quite a big baby. They were worried that she might have a prolapse cold. So she was in hospital for five days prior to that. And this is the day before giving birth. So it was, yeah, very close. Yeah. And she was just ready to go and get on with it because of course, also they have a great menu, but because she had diabetes, she couldn’t eat most of it.

02:33
breaking on the menu. Of course she could. Yes. And do you remember how many weeks along you were when Elizabeth was born? It was two weeks before her due date. Yep, but she was well cooked still. Yep, well cooked. Yep. Yes. I think anything after 37 weeks is classed as full term. And I think you get to 38, that’s really good. So good work team. And then the second photo here is a, you know, that day of birth. That is Excuse My Hair. In that photo we had…

03:01
been in labour for almost about 11 hours I think and it was a really hard birth.

03:10
Rumours quiet and everything and I thought, oh, I’ll just leave them, go feed the cats. And I left and I came back an hour later and it was all calm again. And I said, oh, nothing happened. And Stephen said, oh no, our surrogate, her epidural didn’t work. So they had to come back in and do it. And she was overheating the beer. Elizabeth was being cooked. Elizabeth’s heart rate dropped.

03:34
very significantly, at which point Stephen heard the midwife say, please don’t die on me darling. Um, luckily Trace, uh, sorry, Tracey, let’s call her Tracey. Luckily she didn’t hear it. It would really freaked her out otherwise. Quite serious. It was quite serious and then Elizabeth wouldn’t engage so they had to come in and manually. Okay. Yeah, then she came out with no problem.

04:00
Well done. Yeah, quite an intense time. All these things you’ve learned about women’s bodies. Yeah, so we are very tired.

04:07
in this shot. Yes, very happy. Happy and tired. Yes. Yeah. How your life changed on that day. That’s right. That’s right. Did you know you were having a girl during the pregnancy or was it a surprise? We did and we’re very excited. I wanted a girl. To name her Elizabeth after the lady behind you. Yes, after her majesty. I’m actually in the Australian Monarchy League. So of course. And also it turns out it’s a family name too. So there you go. It worked.

04:37
out well. Yeah. And then I think the other photos we’ve got here is I guess part of this life after Sauriacy. So this is photos of being dead. First birthday. Yes. I love that little foot. Yeah. She um she still does the foot thing. She.

04:51
doesn’t like being contained in anything. Yeah right. So she was kind of wiggling in your arms there was she? Yep, yep. Yep. And so that’s first birthday I think and then what other adventures are going on? This is, oh this was a pantomime of Aladdin that we went to about a month ago during the school holidays and she just loved it. Wonderful. Pantomimes hey? That’s very neat. So much fun. Yes they can be. Oh no they’re not.

05:19
Oh yes, I am. There we go. And again, well when I showed my husband this photo, he’s like, is this the next book? Yeah. No, this is not the next book. I’m working on the next book and you’ll know what it’s about soon. But this is close to the next book, surely.

05:39
So yeah, this was just the other day when we were down in the Gold Coast and we decided to go to Seaworld which she loved and prayed to love nice memories. Yes and that’s what it’s about as parents isn’t it? That’s what you dream of and going yes there’s the ups and downs of having a toddler but it’s about seeing their awe at you know these sorts of outings too isn’t it? That’s right, that’s right and she just looks so happy there. Oh she does!

06:03
beautiful blue eyes too catching the sun there. Thank you. Um we don’t know where those eyes come from. Um. They’re her own. They’re her own. So even even my egg donor who she prefers to be called the gift giver which you mentioned before. Yes. The gift givers. Um none of her family have those eyes either. Interesting. Right. Yeah. He’s got her own. There you go. And this one here was that part of the Sea World trip to? That’s the Sea World.

06:30
travel as well we and our our daggy daggy hats that we bought last minute because we’ve got our hats in Brisbane. Yes good to be sun smart. Yep daggy dad hats. Yeah wonderful and then this is recently? This is recently that’s her third birthday so we all had our faces painted. Good. And she’s eating a chocolate crackle. Oh good. Classic. I’m very I adore the all the all the

06:57
All the treats from my childhood are being brought back. Wonderful. Yeah. And as we said before, because you’ve pretty much had Elizabeth during all of COVID. And so first birthday was peak of COVID. And so third birthday you were able to have some more people. Yeah, a lot more people after her birthday. Nice. And also I’ve met a lot more gay dads as well over the time. And she, yeah, we were able to have them there, which is great.

07:26
Definitely. And that’s something I’m really passionate about. So that these surrogate babies, when they’re growing up, they’ve got a friend who’s got a family that looks like theirs, and another family that’s got two dads. So that when they go to school or go over to a friend’s house, you know, it’s not, they’re not all different. And there’s a real variety. And the question, it might be two dads, or it might be, you know, mom and a dad, but a kid was born by surrogacy. And it’s that.

07:49
question of whose tummy did you grow in? It’s just not assumed that it’s one of your parents. That’s right. Well, we actually had Elizabeth in a daycare centre that was all just mum and dad families and now we’ve moved her to another daycare. There’s a mum there, a single mother through IVF who I just invited to her birthday just by chance. I didn’t know this. And these

08:19
so much more diversity like that. Beautiful yeah I think that’s important isn’t it? Yeah. But families yeah look different. So I’d like you to take us back to the beginning then Mitchell, obviously you know we saw the pregnancy photo there and some birth. Take us back to the beginning about how you found your surrogate. Our surrogate was actually at our house for Christmas Day, one year that’s how close she is to us. I treat a lot of my friends like family members.

08:46
her and I were actually out on the balcony having a sneaky cigarette as you do, as I used to do. Sure.

08:53
And she said, oh, so you and Stephen, do you have a surrogate yet? And I said, oh, no, I’m thinking of asking. She said, well, Mitch, I have Udors, I’m not using it. Love you and Stephen. I have my own and I’d love to help you guys because I’d like to. Yeah. And I just was stunned. And I said, wow, I guess we better quit smoking then. What a Christmas Day present. Yeah, what a Christmas present. Yeah. Wow.

09:21
The other lady I was going to ask, I sent her a text message one day saying I have a question for you. She sent one back saying, oh, what is it? And I said back, it’s a question you have to ask in person. She sent back, you want me to have your babies, don’t you? So she was waiting for it. So yeah, she became our gift giver.

09:41
Oh right, so she was your egg donor instead? Yeah. Look, it took about five years for us. Did it? Because there was the counselling and everything and had to jump through all these hoops. There was problems with the Medicare rebate, so we actually had to change clinic.

09:58
Halfway through the process, just before the transfer, I think our surrogate had an issue with her ovaries so they weren’t sure whether she could even donate eggs, which was actually really good for her because we found out that she had this issue and so she got to get that cleared up or else she wouldn’t have known. That’s quite common in the egg donation surrogacy world, isn’t it? That due to…

10:22
Having all these tests women sometimes find things out which can be good or bad but sometimes knowing is helpful. Now unfortunately the first pregnancy was a miscarriage. Was it?

10:34
The second one was ectopic. Oh wow, what a change. How far along for the first pregnancy, well for the first miscarriage? The first ones were both six weeks. Wow, everybody starts to get their hopes up and it’s nice to imagine. What’s wrong with us and things like that. And the surrogate’s that hard because they blame themselves and their body. That’s right, that surrogate was beating herself up. Third one was five. Third one, wow. It was a harder pregnancy than her first one, much harder.

11:03
Yeah. How many kids of her own does she have? One. Yes, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you’re obviously older each time you get pregnant, so it’s harder on your body. Yeah.

11:11
Yep and so she lives locally to you? Oh yeah she lives a couple of suburbs away. Oh perfect. Yeah so we still catch up all the time. She’s Aunty Tracy and I’m Uncle Mitch to her little girl. Yeah that’s lovely. And even now Egg Donut. Katie her name is, she’s good for me to say her name. Katie was my best friend in high school. Wow what a history. I said to Katie I said you know if it was straight, if I was straight we’d be married. She’s like I know that so.

11:41
So she, yeah, she, the dog’s always out for her as well. Beautiful. I think that’s a great example for people listening tonight who might be at the very beginning going, you know, what could it all look like? And hearing, yeah, these people are a part of your life. And if there’s somebody you knew before, you’ve already had a frequency of contact of how often that you catch up. And so it sounds like you’re just maintaining that. That we’re just having fun. And they must be loving watching you guys be dads. And they are. Going through the thick of it all. Yep, yep.

12:08
That’s great. So then I think we’ve kind of like nearly circled back in. So you’re saying the pregnancy was the third one, so third transfer took and then was a bit of a harder pregnancy. And then you’ve mentioned that the birth there was, um, well, the gestational diabetes really added to that too, didn’t it? Stress for you all. Yes. Were there any things in particular that you did during pregnancy to support your surrogate and her family? But surrogates are often very stubborn independent women and want to do it all themselves. But do you remember certain things that you had to do as a team?

12:36
Oh, one really nice thing was we rang every night, every night at seven o’clock on the dot. Yes. We rang up to ask her how she was and just have a little chat to her and also speak to Elizabeth and sing to her. Yeah, pass your voices on. She already, so Tracy would put her phone to her belly and she said that Elizabeth would start moving around.

13:04
of our voices. That’s awesome and that’s lovely for you guys to know too that you’re developing that bond with her. And then my dad who lives in Marks Overseas, he came home a few times and just before the birth he came back and had a chat to her belly. Yeah that’s really special. It was really a family thing. Yeah.

13:27
modern family there. Yeah yeah yeah. And how did your surrogate Tracy go with the birth? You know was hand over fine or she wanted to pick up? No no no she said no it’s all I’m just the oven. Yeah. So I did skin on skin contact then Stephen did and Tracy expressed so I gave her the first feed. Yeah. Did she continue to do some expressing or more just did that? She did. She was.

13:53
prepared to do expressing for six months. Wow. I know, amazing. She was prepared to or she did? Wow, Elizabeth rejected her breast milk. I read that some children reject breast milk if it’s not their parents’ milk because it smells different from their scent. Right from their…

14:12
primary care, like then you guys became the parents, right? Even though interesting. And it’s a bit of a guessing game sometimes, isn’t it? Of, you know, what was next. So she’s grown up mainly on formula.

14:23
And yeah, she’s, yeah. That is best. Yeah, that’s right. That’s lovely. Well, here we go. We’ll add this question in because that’s about at the right time. So it says, after the birth, how difficult or easy did you find the perinatal order process? So the parentage order process? Well, so I’ll just do a bit of background here. So Mitchell’s husband, Stephen, if people are not familiar with him, he is one of the leading surrogacy lawyers in Australia and they’re based in Brisbane. And so they are very familiar with how this process works. But I suppose suddenly you were on the other side of it.

14:53
Well, that’s the thing that Stephen was saying. It was, he was on the other side. When he needed to get legal advice, he got it from his outsider who was so nervous. Yes. Well, she had to though. She had to give him legal advice. Yes, he couldn’t go his own.

15:11
That was no no. So that was quite funny. Tracy was the only parent on the birth certificate, single lady. Right. So and then we needed to get a transfer which the judge was fine and he just did it. And we actually were at a law function, a law breakfast and we caught up with the judge as well and he did some drawing with Elizabeth so that was really cute.

15:38
But one big thing was they had Elizabeth listed as male on her best certificate. So I needed to put that in to give the change and have a review. And I said, look, someone just put the wrong thing in the drop down box. Like, yeah, so that was a bit of a rigmarole. But yeah, we found it pretty easy.

15:59
Good. Do you remember, happen to remember after how many months after she was born, your, it came through the new, either the parentage order or then the new birth certificate? Probably a bit of a blur. Was it by the Christmas? Oh yeah, it was by Christmas. Right, so it was definitely within those six months. It was a bit of a blur. It was, yeah, two or three months. Yeah, that’s about the average, isn’t it? So you can probably start at somewhere between six weeks post-birth, you start the paperwork journey and then usually by six months people have that. So hopefully that answers your question there, Anonymous. I’ll

16:29
praise here. As a Team Page supporter, Mitch, thank you for sharing your story in such an open forum. She loves it. They work in an IVF clinic, not either one.

16:38
not either of the ones Mitchell used. So it’s really interesting to hear the afterwards from both of us. So thank you for sharing that. Another one that’s popped up here. Did you take your baby home or did you wait until the parentage transfer is complete? And that’s a great beginner question. That is a great question. Did you stay in hospital together? Now, because it was such a long delivery and labour, Tracy had no food, of course. So Elizabeth had

17:08
the hospital. Now the drama was that Asarghat was able to leave the night before we were, but she had to stay in because we all had to leave together, which caused her great stress. And Stephen was out to them on the phone to their lawyers and they were on their phone to the lawyers and everything because they…

17:30
they were really cautious about how they treated us because they knew that Stephen sent them a lot of business. Never mind. So no, they were just like, the midwives would come into our room, Oh, Stephen Page, we saw you talking to… So yeah, it was pretty cool. But yeah, that was really stressful for her and that stressed us as well. So we all left at the same time and…

17:55
We drove home with Elizabeth and she drove home to her daughter and yeah. Yes, so I think for people at the very beginning here, that’s a great beginner question.

18:04
Yes, the intended parents have the baby from birth. You don’t have to wait until parentage order there. A really common arrangement is if you’re in hospital for a night or two, you’re often in rooms next to each other. More and more hospitals are becoming experienced with surrogacy. So teams have gone before you to pave the way of what’s normal. There are occasions where the child is discharged before the surrogate because she might have had a caesarean or whatever.

18:28
Sometimes the surrogate baby needs to stay in because of health and the surrogate is allowed to be discharged. So it just depends on different hospitals. The parents are doing all the first feeds, all the nappies, all of that stuff. But because your surrogate will be your friend by that point, even if they were a stranger at the beginning, she’ll wanna have cuddles. She’ll wanna see you guys be parents and she’ll wanna have a cuddle and then baby will squawk and she can hand it back to you. And you’re gonna want her to see her holding the baby too. So…

18:53
There’s no fear by the end that anybody, the surrogate is going to keep the baby or you’re not going to take it, but it’s totally okay to have those, you know, thoughts at the beginning, isn’t it? We don’t know what we don’t know. Over in chat now, there’s been a comment here by Alex. It might, yes, I see a question mark in there, so I’m going to read it out. Alex is saying, thank you for sharing our insights. My partner and I are living in sunny Brisbane at the moment. We’re wanting to return home next year to Sydney. We want to explore surrogacy now though. Do you know if there would be any difficulties in living in Brisbane and moving to Sydney during the process?

19:23
Malik if we try and start our journey from now. You want to have a go or I’ll have a go? Of course, I’m not a lawyer, my husband is, so get yourself some good legal advice, that’s all I can say. It’s a minefield, it really is. Every state and territory in Australia is different and it is a minefield and if you don’t get the proper legal advice, which might cost you a bit upfront, if it stops you from breaking the law and having to pay a lot more money in legal fees, then

19:53
down the line, yes, much more work. So two things I’ll say there. So Alex, let me know in chat, do you have a surrogate now or not? Because that might influence how I answer that question. So if you could type that in. And I’ll also mention that, yes, I suppose in theory, you don’t technically need a lawyer until you have a team, but sometimes having connected with a lawyer ahead of time, a bit like a counselor, if you have a pre-counseling session, it means you’ve made a connection with someone and therefore they know a bit about your history. So then when you pick it up later on with them for the official stuff,

20:23
all of the back work and they’re kind of somebody that cares about you then because you’ve already got a connection you’ve come back. So it is actually an investment of time and money. It is. So Alex, so you don’t have a surrogate. So in that case, I would advise becoming active in the community in this time, for example, come to the Zoom monthly catch-ups, start to get to know other people and how it works because you don’t know how long it’s going to be until you find a surrogate. It could be years. So you may have well and truly moved to Sydney by that point. You…

20:50
might move to Sydney, be there for a year, and then find a surrogate in Brisbane. So you just never know. It’s gonna go by the lords of the state where you’re in, which sounds like it’s gonna be Sydney, New South Wales long-term, but there’s surrogacy lawyers like Stephen Page who can consult on any state in Australia. So, you know, that…

21:06
that’s not necessarily an issue. But I can understand, you know, and those that are new to listening, how to weigh that all up. Do you wait until you’re settled where you are? I guess my advice is engage with people now because you’re gathering resources and information and that shows a surrogate that you’re keen to engage in this whole process too. So yeah, interesting questions there, isn’t it? I guess hearing a lot of what Stephen does.

21:30
especially now we’re working from home a lot and I hear a lot more. Your initial assessment, as you were saying, is not engaging a lawyer. It’s more about getting the information and he can just do do do do do and give you all that information and totally overwhelm you. But it does kind of set you up for making a roadmap. Yeah, that’s a good way to phrase it. And so hopefully having attended a webinar like this tonight to give them that

21:54
quick snapshot of what they’re after. Yeah, and then perhaps engaging with some professionals that the more people you hear the road map from, the more you go, oh, this is the map.

22:03
I understand it now. That’s right. Yes. And so I think a combination of speaking to the professionals and also engaging with peers who have done this too. So that’s helpful. So Mitchell, along the way, is there something that was particularly hard for your team in the journey? I mean, I guess you’ve already touched on the birth and whatever. Is there something unexpected that you that you were you found more challenging? You know, it was it was just that it took so long.

22:25
It took five years and even Stephen said that he’s never had clients that took that long because we had a lot of speed bumps. And so that’s a great example again of how this can take, it can take a long time even for people in the biz. Usually it takes one and a half to two years. Yeah I’ll share my data gathering with those listening tonight. About 50% of surrogates.

22:48
have a live birth on that first embryo transfer. Maybe the quality of the embryos going in, you know, if they’ve come from donors, might be better than just, you know, I’m sure hetero couples don’t have that hit rate though yet, but 90% of surrogates have a live birth after three, within three, so either one, two, or three embryo transfers. So I would advise having at least three embryos as a guide. Did your egg donor need to have to do two egg collections in the end? She did have two eggs.

23:13
and she also needed to, it was quite brutal, she would have to give herself needles in her stomach she actually would film it to send to me because she’s like if I’m going through this you have to put up with it as well which I was…

23:29
I was totally fine with it. Good. And I think that’s great. You should be. And it’s lovely to hear that you were, because this is your journey, isn’t it? That’s right. You’re doing it together. Yeah. So that would have set you back time, because the embers get quarantined each time, and then money too. Now, I guess because Stephen and I are quite well known in Brisbane, we also got.

23:52
attacked by certain religious groups as well. Oh did you? Which was absolutely horrible. I’ve been in social work at the going on for 20 years so I have pretty thick skin. Okay. I’m like I don’t know how I would do I’m actually but I didn’t think you’d have you’d be had you couldn’t have had 20 years of professional work but anyway maybe. Well yeah. Young dad.

24:15
That’s right. Well, as we come towards the end, and we’ll just, I’ve got a couple of questions to wrap up. I’m just going to, you know, do a nice little plug for you here. But I’ve got a copy. I’ve got one too. That’s me, right? So I’ve got mine autographed. So there you go, everybody that’s listening, that’s a copy.

24:30
That’s what the first book that Mitchell’s written is his day at the zoo. That’s right. Now, can I just say the reason why I did these books is because most of the LGBTIQ plus children’s books out there are really tokenistic, like I have two mummies or I have two daddies. This is just about us going to the zoo. There’s nothing about sexuality or anything in there. They’re showing a normal family doing normal, boring everyday things. Yeah. And just so that other kids can read a book with a family that looks like their family.

25:00
That’s right, that’s right. And they’re actually now available in all the libraries up here in Brisbane.

25:07
it’s getting out there and yeah and I also do a reading as well on YouTube. Yes you can see that so if anybody’s been following us on social media you can see the link to that that we put in the post there so yes because there are some books that explain how surrogacy works to kids but then having a book that’s more just about family and things that families do with two dads yeah that’s lovely to have that. Do have a question here so someone that’s at the very start of their journey in research they’re a same-sex male couple in Brisbane how much should we have as a minimum in

25:37
kitty for this journey? Aha! I’ve got an answer. What would you recommend Mitchell? Well if you’re doing altruistic I would say between 20 to 40 000. Yes, yep. Going overseas to say America to do commercial I would say between 150 to 200 000. Yes, I would say that for America. I know some people that come home once have done all the travel 250 000 for America sometimes. Yep.

26:04
So by my data gathering too, maybe I should send you the link. So I got this survey spreadsheet that I get people to do one IPs once they’ve done the journey, just try and get a snapshot of how much does it cost in Australia. So my range for people is between about 30, 35 up to 90,000 with an average of about 60,000. So Baker cost my dad’s, the dad’s 60,000. I’ll give you an idea of what happens in there. If you’re at the lower end, that might be for people. So I’m a bit surprised by yours, Mitchell, but maybe you got mates rates for lawyers. I’m not sure. No, no, no.

26:34
Yeah, but I’m not sure. So. No, that’s fine. But you don’t need, let’s say the 60,000 just to start up with. I would say if you’ve got a 10,000, 20,000 save to start with, and then bearing in mind it’s a couple year journey, so you’re still earning your income along the way. So it’s like to know you perhaps got a bit of a backup plan, in terms of if you’ve got some property or parents that could spot your $5,000 if it came from that, as in parents of the IPs or some backup plan.

27:04
one egg collection or already had their embryos. The surrogate lives locally to them and worked first embryo transfer and they didn’t really have lots of wages to cover. And those at the upper end are those that perhaps needed multiple egg collection.

27:16
multiple transfers, the surrogate lived interstate, so the IPs are having to pay flights and accommodation each time they travel and maybe there were loss of wages to cover there. So you just, I mean, if you’re, you’ll know if you’re an interstate couple or not, but the rest can be uncertain in terms of how many embryo transfers it’s going to take. I hope that helps Anonymous to give you a bit of an answer there in terms of how much to have. And I think we had similar answers there, so that’s helpful. Potentially, yes, altruistic surrogacy in Australia will cost you much less than overseas. Mitchell, if there anything that you would change about your journey then upon

27:46
No, no, nothing. It had its speed of ups and downs but no, it was pretty good. Wonderful. And is there any parting advice you’d like to give to others here or things that you often say to people at the beginning? If you choose to do surrogacy, it’s a case of if not when, if you’re going to become a parent. Of course there are things like you could run out of money, someone could die. So there are things but if you’ve done your research and everything and you’re all

28:14
100% dedicated then go. That’s great advice. And I’ve not often heard people say that, that it’s that if you want this to happen, stick to it, believe in it, work towards it. And some people, also another aspect is some people give up if they have too many miscarriages, they’re just like, no, I can’t do this, which is understandable.

28:34
Totally understandable. And the variable there is the surrogate might call it quits. Yeah, that’s right. And that’s hard. And it could be a case of then your journey ends or you put yourself back out there and go again, but it’s prepared to pace your energy out too, isn’t it? Or the surrogate keeps changing the rules or which we’ve seen happen as well. Yes, indeed. Or things might change for her health or her family. That’s right. Things might have things happen and she needs to pause for a bit. So it’s an uncertain journey, isn’t it? Even when it was a surrogate and an egg donor in your world that you knew

29:04
things can still happen. Things can change, yeah. Thank you so much for joining me. On our YouTube channel, you will find many other episodes as well as the images mentioned in this webinar. If you’re looking for more resources, check out the show notes for this episode and consider joining us for one of our webinars so you can have your questions answered on the spot. Please subscribe to this podcast if you found it valuable and share it with someone so they too can benefit from this conversation.

29:31
Until next time, welcome to the village.