
.
Episode 88 – Michelle – surrogate
Michelle and husband, Glenn, live in Wollongong with their 2 children and she has birthed 2 children as a surrogate, Alice in March 2019 and Isaac in November 2020. Michelle works as a nurse at IVF Australia and that is where we met one of the dads – Dr Shadi Khashaba. She has also donated her eggs 10 times to help 5 families, as well as supporting many people through surrogacy – both through her work and part of the wider surrogacy community.
You can hear from one of the dads she carried for, Dr Shadi, in episode 44.
This episode was recorded in January 2025.
To see the beautiful images described in this recording, watch it on our YouTube channel.
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These podcasts were recorded as part of the free webinar series run by Surrogacy Australia. If you would like to attend one, head to this page for dates and registration links. The recording can also be found on our YouTube channel so you can see the photos that are described. Find more podcast episodes here.
The webinars are hosted by Anna McKie who is a gestational surrogate, high school Math teacher and surrogacy educator working with Surrogacy Australia and running SASS (Surrogacy Australia’s Support Service).
Follow Surrogacy Australia on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube.
Are you an Intended Parent (IP) who is looking to find a surrogate, or a surrogate looking for Intended Parents? Consider joining SASS.
00:00
Thanks for watching!
00:14
Welcome to Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series. I’m your host Anna McKie, and my aim is to raise the level of awareness of surrogacy through these conversations. This podcast is a recording from a webinar that I host, and you can find more details about those and upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org The webinars are free, go for an hour, and will take you through how surrogacy works in Australia. You can ask questions, typing them in anonymously if you prefer.
00:42
and you hear from a co-host who has navigated surrogacy in Australia, either a surrogate, a gay dad, or a straight mom. This episode, recorded in January, 2025, features Michelle. Michelle and husband Glenn live in Wollongong with their two children, and she has birthed two children as a surrogate, Alice in March, 2019, and Isaac in November, 2020. Michelle works as a nurse at IVF Australia, and that is where she met one of the dads, Dr. Shadi Khashaba.
01:11
She has also donated her eggs 10 times to help five families, as well as supporting many people through surrogacy, both through her work and part of the wider surrogacy community. You can hear from one of the dads she carried for, Shadi, in episode 44. Michelle and I have been friends for many years now, and it was a pleasure to have her on the webinar as a co-host. I really enjoyed the discussion around birth, hence the title of this episode, Their Baby, My Birth.
01:39
This is really important for surrogacy teams to consider because birth is part of the emotional payment for a surrogate. As Michelle says, “‘I wanted to see the transition “‘from intended parents to parents.’ And that’s why it’s so important to plan out that handover moment and definitely consider having a birth photographer. In terms of what life looks like now for their team, Michelle summed it up perfectly by saying, “‘Surrogacy brought us together, “‘but it’s not what keeps us together.'” I hope you enjoy this episode.
02:07
So Michelle, take us back to the beginning. As I said, you’ve been an egg donor and then became a surrogate. Is that the order that it happened and is that how you eventually came to be a surrogate through donation knowledge? Yeah, it was the order. I originally thought I was going to donate eggs once and that was gonna be the nice thing that I did for the people that I chose to do that for. And they got pregnant.
02:30
fortunately, which is amazing. And I decided I probably had room to do that again a few more times. Do you remember how old you were when you were starting the donation? I was old in terms of, you know, a donor. I’m sure I was already 33. Yeah, I would have been 33 because I did my first egg collection, I think December, 2012.
02:54
So yeah. And so you had your own kids and were finished having you film? Yeah, yeah and gosh let me think how old… so my youngest would have been four, just turned five at that point. So they were five and eight. Yeah. Yes, excellent. And so then it became a little bit addictive in some ways going I could keep helping here. A little bit. Once you know that you’ve got a limit you kind of feel like you need to fulfill that limit.
03:18
For those that might not be familiar with what you’re saying, what do you mean by limit? So in each state, and for New South Wales particularly for me,
03:26
you have what’s called a family limit. So you are allowed to donate for a maximum of five families. Doesn’t matter how many children they have per family, but you can help to create five families, but that includes your own. So any clinic recruited donors will only ever be allowed to donate to four families, always reserving one spot for their own potential family as well. And so how many times did you have to go through that egg collection and how many families have you therefore helped out for?
03:56
collections. I have technically assisted not including surrogacy I’ve technically assisted six
04:03
families including myself. One family were unfortunately unsuccessful with the embryos that they had and I don’t know whether they’ve gone on to successfully have um they did already have one child but they were trying for a sibling um so I’m unsure if they uh were successful in that but I recently one of my previous donor recipient couples wanted to on-donate their remaining embryos which they couldn’t do in New South Wales because I was at family limit so they export
04:33
them to another state and that has resulted in another pregnancy.
04:38
So very lucky for all of those families, very good. The one that you said you’re not sure about, clearly you’ve lost touch there, but the classic question is have you kept in touch with the others where the babies have been born? All of them, yes. I have contact with all of the other families. The one that’s currently pregnant from the undonated embryo, I don’t know them. That’s not a process that I’ve been involved with because those embryos technically no longer belong to me, but I’ve been updated and really happy to hear that they’ve been pregnant. I think that baby’s due in August. Right, wonderful. Yeah.
05:08
and often there’s a bit of a crossover between donation and surrogacy. So is that where the seed was planted about potentially being a surrogate or do you remember some other process happening? I didn’t really ever picture myself as being a surrogate. I thought, you know, eggs I can do, surrogacy, that’s a little bit more intimate to the whole other level. And obviously it involves partners, family and everybody else in a more intense way. I was worried about how my husband would feel
05:37
me being pregnant with other people’s children or child. I was only planning one to start with. And how was he with it?
05:45
Fine, like he’s been incredibly supportive throughout everything I’ve done. I think education for him was really important to know that, I think often when people with no information about surrogacy hear that you’ve been a surrogate, they automatically think that, oh, but is not your biological child? Like how are you giving away a child of your own? So I had to educate him on how that process works. And he was like, oh, yeah, okay, that’s fine. So, hmm.
06:14
We went through the motions, did all the counselling and all that sort of thing. And yeah, he was very much my number one supporter. Excellent. Yes. They’re often the unsung heroes of this. The partners aren’t they? Yep. Still is. I did a webinar once with the partners of surrogates, which I think was a really powerful resource as well to create for people to listen to in the future. So then how did it happen? The seed was planted. Did you go out of your way to try and find people to be a surrogate for, or how did the conversations come up? I think it was because I knew.
06:44
that Shardi and his partner were in the market, so to speak. And we had, you know, discussions between, it was a really weird situation because we did work at the same workplace and it was quite open conversation about.
07:02
what they were planning and I just figured I could be that person to offer to them and I didn’t jump into that deep end. I needed to make sure that my husband was on board and we had all the right things in place before offering to do that. Did you know they were looking for a surrogate because they were exploring overseas surrogacy or it was just sort of? Just knew that that’s what their plan was. They were wanting to start a family. They
07:32
to ask to be their egg donor but weren’t sure how that was going to be received or if they would be willing to do that. Yeah that all went very well and they did two egg collections to bank a total of five embryos. And so I think the point you made before about you know four years from looking for IPs to birthing, I think mine was probably quite similar it would be at least three years. Yeah.
08:02
Did that feel…
08:04
At the time, oh my gosh, this is so slow, or by the end it felt like the right amount of time? I think if it was a faster process, we potentially might’ve had more hurdles along the way. I don’t know what precisely, but I think it set us up really well with good lines of communication and being able to have open discussions about all sorts of things and create a friendship that wasn’t necessarily based around surrogacy because we didn’t really know what the timeframe was going to be
08:34
we might actually have a transfer. So we spent more time.
08:37
just hanging out and doing stuff and being friends. Yeah. Yeah, excellent. And taking that to building that friendship with your each of your partners and your children as well. How were your own children with the idea of surrogacy? They were absolutely fine about it. They were very open and accepting people. They had seen egg donation come and go over you know a period of several years and was they were a bit blasé if anything in in a sense that it’s like oh okay just the next thing.
09:07
doing the next thing now. Yeah this is just the next thing. Yes I’ve got lots of questions to ask you about things.
09:12
more broadly about surrogacy but let’s capture your journeys a bit. You then went into the counseling and legals to prepare prepare for the first birth. Alice is there things that you can remember about that process or the pregnancy and birth itself? What springs to mind about the first journey? Not so much about the counseling and legals that was all pretty straightforward. We didn’t have any issues with any of that. I don’t not that I remember it’s now you know a
09:42
Right. Can you give an example? I had two very straightforward, very low risk, low key pregnancies with my own children and Alice’s pregnancy was a little bit different. She, I had gestational diabetes. I was turning 40 during that pregnancy. I had, she was breached. So I was then thrust into having a caesarean section, which as a midwife kind of freaked
10:12
totally okay. But again, sometimes surrogates come into surrogacy because we had fairly smooth pregnancies and births and we feel that we could do it again. And so you had the different. Everything different. Yes. Everything different. So yeah, and just being able to navigate some of those changes that you don’t really have a lot of control over is important to do as a team. Yes, I’m gonna take us back to the photos.
10:35
then because we’ve got a couple of your pregnancy there. When you were talking about expect the unexpected, was there certain things in your team then that was there any conflict that arose about differing opinions of how things would go? Because sometimes conflict is actually good in the long run for a team because it strengthens you but is there anything that springs to mind there? I don’t think it was conflict so much as how to work out what the birth plan would be on the day now that we were forced to be having a cesarean
11:05
was going to be in theatre and where, at what point do we, do I hand over that baby that I actually want to do as part of my journey.
11:14
you know that that’s that’s the gold at the end of the rainbow um and yeah navigating that in in the week before um theatre was it wasn’t it wasn’t difficult in terms of making a decision it was difficult for me to feel like i wasn’t putting them out because this was their baby but i had to kind of remember this is actually my birth and i need to feel safe and secure and
11:44
birth. Yeah. And I wonder if you had learned that from the community or just in your knowledge of and I wonder if we’ve got a photo of that there. No, we’ll come back to that one. I think I’ve got them in the wrong order. But I know of some surrogates that if you have a caesarean it’s that waiting until you’re in recovery when you’re sitting up and you know all stitched up and they’re to hand baby over and to see their reactions. Yeah. Sitting up as opposed to lying down on an operating table. That can be really important for that hand
12:14
I think and so that was something that was important. Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to be able to see that transition from Intended parents to parents. Yeah, that’s the whole point, right? IPs to P’s. Yeah, and I’ve got it on video. So Oh Wonderful. Yes. So these beautiful photos here, I put the silly one second, even though the order comes first there So just tell us what’s happening in each of these photos. The first one in the blue dress is
12:40
the baby shower when I was pregnant with Alice. So that was probably a month before Alice was born. And we had a lot of friends, family, work colleagues, because we had lots of mutual work colleagues, which was a really nice event. And me at the hospital on the right-hand side having my CTG, which is where you monitor.
13:04
the baby two days I think I worked out two days before the birth. Simply because that was part of the routine procedure for them I had to go and have bloods and things done prior to the caesarean. So yeah. That looks like there’s quite a bit of humor that happens in your team here. Yeah. And so what was the event happening here with your family and kids and the IPs? That was actually transfer day. Right the first one for Alice. Yep. Yes. So that was and John’s birthday too. Oh. Or the day after either or.
13:34
Yeah, we had already been and had the transfer. We went for a drive and lunch and hung out for a while before we headed home because we live at that point, we were living about an hour and a half away from each other. Oh, okay. Yeah, a bit of a trick. Yeah. And then comes the day of birth, hey? Yeah. When you look back at this photo, what are you thinking and feeling? Um, wow, I can breathe again.
13:57
It was such a pleasant experience. I think not having had a caesarean I was still a little apprehensive about how that was going to go but I chose the obstetrician that I wanted to have throughout the pregnancy. Having worked in the industry I knew somebody that I felt really comfortable with and the team in theatre were just they were amazing. They couldn’t have bent over backwards further for us. Very joyful moment for all the staff there that day and then here you are
14:27
and the dads meeting their little bubba? Yeah, that’s a little while after we got back and we’d already done the handover and everything and I think that might’ve been just before they unwrapped Alice and started doing blood sugars and things like that because I had the gestational diabetes. So yeah. Okay, so that’s journey one. And then I guess at some point in time, journey two comes. Well, one of these last photos here of the first journey that’s with your children meeting Alice, is that right? Yeah, yeah, in the hospital. I think we were still there, so yeah.
14:57
And so there’s often a classic question, do you all sort of stay in the hospital?
15:00
together, sort of rooms apart for a few days? We did, we actually had two rooms that were next to each other, I think. I basically had a suite to myself because Alice roomed in with her dads while they learned to become parents. You know, they would bring her in so that I could have cuddles, as you see in the photo. I didn’t direct feed Alice, but I did express. So I was able to just express and take milk in. And I looked after Alice while they went down to get a coffee or…
15:30
had their shower or something like that. And yeah, so it worked out really nicely. Good. And so then clearly you offered a sibling journey at some point too, yeah? Yes. Yeah, yeah. And so had that been on the table at the beginning as a maybe or? Yeah. So presumptuous. Yeah, no, it was definitely on the table from the start. I did say after I had offered.
15:52
to be their surrogate, I had said, you know, potentially, if everything goes okay, I’ll be willing to do a second.
16:01
pregnancy to help hopefully complete their family because it would be two and that would be all. Yeah I think Alice was probably about maybe only in five months and I said to them are you still considering having a sibling because unfortunately my time is running low. At that point I was 40, nearly 41 and I didn’t really want to be having pregnancies much later than I was
16:31
planning. So yeah, we kind of moved the ball a little bit more quickly than maybe initially first thought and the the two kids, Isaac, was born 20 months after Alice’s birthday. So and that was through COVID.
16:45
very different pregnancy in terms of, you know, they attended many, many of the appointments for Alice and could only really FaceTime in for appointments with Isaac and even ultrasounds and things like that. They weren’t able to be physically there. It was harder for them because they had a toddler, but the restrictions meant that they couldn’t be there anyway. So that was, it was a bit trickier to navigate in that regard, but we basically just carbon copied
17:15
the same process I guess. The difference being this time though they were actually allowed to come into theatre. We did hand over in theatre. Okay right. Having that second pregnancy during COVID did that impact you emotionally in terms of it not being what you had signed up for and thought would happen? Was that disappointing or what do you remember? Look I think it was okay. Yes it changed what was
17:41
possible. You know what I’m like Anna, I’m pretty crazy and I’ll just go with whatever, you know, whatever the flow is. And I’m thinking that because it was your second for them, you already had this track record with them. They were already in your life in terms of anticipating, are they going to abandon me? They were still already in your life with a toddler, so you knew they were going to be there perhaps. That’s right.
18:02
And I have no doubt that it was harder for them than it was for me to not be able to attend those appointments and be as involved as they would like to have been, more similar to the pregnancy with Alice. I’d like to think that we did it quite well under the circumstances. I feel like we did. I hope they feel like we did too. And one thing that was different, I think maybe you were saying that to me before, is that either due to doing surrogacy together or also opportunities came up in terms of Shadi then moving.
18:32
clinic, well moving sites within the same clinic to work separately when you embarked on the surrogacy journey. So then he then even second time around or even first, it’s not like he was seeing you at work and seeing your belly and just kind of being close and around his child. He would then know. So that was only you know whatever social contact we were actually allowed to have at that time. So we didn’t work on site together for more than I think a couple of months after I offered to be a surrogate. So even through the first pregnancy we didn’t have contact.
19:01
at the same site. Yes. Yeah. So just finishing up some of these photos here, there’s, you know, the two dads and their two kids and giving Isaac a first feed. How do you feel when you look at a photo like this? I love it. It’s nice. I like those visual cues and it’s always heartwarming and you know, it gives you the warm fuzzies when you see images like that and you think, oh yeah, that’s right. Yeah, I did that. And Alice pointing at her little brother. Yeah. It’s a really candid photo. It’s not the most nicely composed or anything like that.
19:31
exactly what it was like. Yes and I love like Shani’s a doctor right but here he is as a dad in his trap pants holding his toddler. Yeah. They look at their newborn you know and it’s just casual and family really isn’t it? Yeah. It’s beautiful and then here you all are just last couple of photos here of him.
19:47
I think that was the last day. Yeah, in hospital together. Yeah, I think I’ve got one there where you’re all looking at Isaac and Alice is pointing at him. And then a bit more of a close up with you all. Yeah. And then you shared with me just tonight. After the webinar, you caught up recently. So I quickly added them into the presentation. So what’s happening in these photos? Well, we caught up on Sunday. We were in the city and, you know.
20:10
take the opportunity when we can to meet up. So we had breakfast together at the Grounds of Alexandria, which is a nice, nice place to go. They do lots of themed things. You can see all the pink Christmas trees and everything behind there. Still had all that set up. So we went and all had breakfast together and you can see the kids are much bigger than the previous photo. Alice will be six in six weeks and Isaac has just turned four. Yeah, crazy. Wow. So as you said, the kids are a bit older now. What’s the connection like with the kids now?
20:40
Are they comfortable with you? Are you a bit of a stranger? I think because we catch up a few times a year, and when I say a few, sometimes it’s, you know, two or three, sometimes it’s four or five. It just depends on, you know, everybody’s lives. We send photos and we keep in touch. Physical catch-ups, the kids are a little bit, they know who we are, but they’re still a little bit shy and standoffish initially. And then after 10 minutes, they’re absolutely all over us. And you know, they’re showing us, showing off, you know, kid stuff. Look what I can do.
21:08
And it’s good fun. I know that sometimes I get referred to as Arnie and Michelle, but I don’t think that that’s certainly not expected. They know that they grew in my tummy and they just call me shell because that’s the easiest thing for them to say. Good. Yeah. And that’s nice to be that familiar shell there. Yeah. So it’s obviously been a few years, sort of four and six years since you birth the bums in terms of the surrogacy community then and your active part in it. What capacity are you connected to the community these days?
21:38
I’ve stepped back from the community quite a lot since Isaac was born. I was just really time poor in that regard and I had lots of other things that I wanted to focus my energies on so I step back.
21:52
from the surrogacy communities, but obviously still have some contacts with other surrogates. Now my main connection to surrogacy and the donor world is through work. So I support the patients that we have that come through in any of those sort of, in those positions really.
22:12
I might come back to the work thing. When you said you keep in touch with a few surrogates, tell people a little bit more about who you keep in touch with. A handful of my very special people. I think of all, no more. No, and I don’t mean their names, but I think either your group is called or it’s known to us, because maybe in Adelaide we’ve got it too. It’s called like the OGs, like the originals. Because I suppose rewind eight years or so ago, there wasn’t much surrogacy. I mean, there was some, but so then there seems to have been in our generation,
22:42
that have done it and so you’ve got a group of ladies that that you’ve maintained contact with? Yeah and we’re all retirees now in terms of surrogacy so I hope that you’re not sure that was the plan but we still have some very very deep connections we’ve gone through the trenches together and supported one another through really awesome times and some really awful times as well so we’ve maintained that connection and a really lovely friendship which is now
23:12
more about catching up with each other and hearing about our own families and things like that and less and less about surrogacy. Surrogacy is what brought us together but it’s not what keeps us together. That’s beautiful and I think you’ve essentially answered that question why have you stayed connected to these women that you might have connected because of surrogacy but you now genuinely value each other as humans. Yeah and now we all have a tattoo together so.
23:35
special right? What a group of women in your life hey? Oh here it comes, here it comes. Has everybody got the same one? A similar version of the same thing, yes. And so that was for those that are listening to this on a podcast, they’re interwoven lines essentially. It’s a Celtic sisterhood knot. Beautiful. There you go. Beautiful. So back in the days when you were more active in the community, like any community of workplaces, sport and whatever, there’s…
24:00
positive and negative challenging parts. I think you’ve kind of talked a bit about the positives there in terms of this small sisterhood group that you’ve come to find. Is there anything else you can reflect on about the surrogacy community, its positives, and also some parts that are not so great? I think the networking is the absolute gold star.
24:19
because you don’t bump into people who are in the surrogacy community when you’re down doing your groceries. I mean, if you do, good luck to you. But most people have never met a surrogate or people that have had children through surrogacy. So…
24:32
Networking those people who are in the same boat, maybe at different ends of the boat, but they’re in the same boat and they can share information, share stories, what’s worked well, what hasn’t worked well, I think is really the heart of what that community was trying to achieve. Yeah, I think that sums that up well. In your work, I’m just wondering if you mainly see people who have got to the point of surrogacy or do you ever see people who now need a surrogate? I’m thinking, is that similar advice that you would give people about…
24:59
how to network? Yeah, it is always try and send people in what I think is a nice direction to be able to do that kind of networking. They need the support as much as the next person. We kind of see them, I don’t know, at varying stages of that journey. So it could be that we’ve seen them through their own fertility journey and now they’re at a point where they are looking at needing a surrogate. Or this is the first attempt at them trying to actually have a child for whatever reason. So it just, yeah,
25:29
Yes, yes, so you’ve got a unique insight here from the community and your work. Are there any changes then that you’d like to see for surrogacy in Australia, either within your workplace and a medical point of view or just more broadly for surrogacy in Australia? What you’d like to see or where you think it’ll go? I think making it a just more visible presence, you know, if you normalise these things then they’re more normal aren’t they?
25:56
Absolutely. Now when you’re looking at a difference in classrooms from, you know, where you might have only had one child born through assisted reproduction to a handful or more in the classroom, they will have something in common, but no one’s actually really sharing that information. So Well, unless they’re in my classroom, because in my classroom, I have photos at the back. I mean, obviously of classes that I’ve taught, but of the egg donor families and my surrogacy journey and my kids at school watched me be pregnant.
26:25
surrogacy and so whenever the kids ask about these photos or of course I bring it up at some point it’s that normalizing that in case any of them need donors or surrogates or might consider being that in the future and I often then ask is anybody an IVF baby in here yeah and I remember 15 years ago you might get one hand now oh yeah lots of common different stories happening so we just need to be talking about it more too and the fact that those kids know that is awesome.
26:51
Exactly, exactly that they know it. So that’s the first step, knowing your story, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully we can see some positive changes happening. Anything else that springs to mind? Not off the top of my head, but you know, I think that’s really a key factor is just making making people aware. Awareness is everything. It is. And just everybody else being comfortable to talk about it. It might not be an experience that they go through, but knowing of other people
27:21
what you can’t see. No, correct. Wonderful. Are there any last parting words that you can think of Michelle that you’d like to pass on to people or things from your journey that we haven’t touched on? Ask questions, seek information. Anna is chat GPT now so just hit her up.
27:38
I did laugh at Siri, you know, you are the Siri, because that’s pretty accurate. Thank you. It surprises me sometimes, because I’m not so arrogant to think that I do know heaps, but I just through being around for eight years, I know more than the people at the beginning.
27:56
And that’s really all it is. And so it’s just finding that little beacon of light at the beginning. But sometimes along your journey as well, isn’t it? To have people that you can ask those questions to. Yeah, it helps you feel less alone, doesn’t it? Yep. Occasionally I get a random question from…
28:12
someone I haven’t heard from in a long time saying, oh, look, I’ve got this friend, where would you send them? Or, you know, what would you suggest? And, you know, just to be a point of contact sometimes is enough. Indeed, and just normalizing it going, oh, what about you know of a real surrogate? Yeah, my friend Michelle, she’s been done it twice. Yeah, who knew? Who knew? Yes, Michelle’s army, having babies and helping babies. Let’s not. I bet your own kids are fairly proud of you. Yeah, they are.
28:39
Wonderful. Pretty fortunate. Yeah. Well you’ve done a good job. We’re proud of you too. You’ve helped so many people through your egg donation, your own surrogacy journey and continuing to help educate people through your work and guide them when they’re actually on that journey. Good work. Thank you for sharing your time with me for this episode. If you’re finding these episodes helpful, please share them with friends. If you’d like to see the images mentioned, head to our YouTube channel for all of the recordings.
29:04
If you’re looking for more individualised support, consider joining SASS, Surrogacy Australia’s support service, so you can be connected with a mentor and also with me to help guide you on a journey. You might think of me as your Siri for surrogacy. Until next time, welcome to the village.
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