Episode 79 – Shane – gay dad

00:00
Thanks for watching!

00:13
Welcome to our podcast series with Surrogacy Australia. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen and in turn for helping us spread awareness and appreciation for surrogacy. I’m your host Anna McKay and these recordings are from a regular webinar series that I run. You can find upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org. During the one hour webinars I will walk you through the surrogacy process in Australia and you can type in questions for us to answer.

00:40
My co-hosts have all done surrogacy in Australia and they alternate between surrogates, gay dads and straight mums. This episode, recorded in November 2024, features Shane. Shane and his partner Clinton near Newcastle, New South Wales, became parents to their son Easton in February 2024. Their surrogate Jenny, who lives nearby, is a friend of Shane’s sister. Their egg donor, Teneale, is Clint’s sister, so there’s a whole village involved.

01:09
They started their surrogacy journey in late 2021 with a previous surrogate that Shane met through the gym. They went down the traditional surrogacy path initially, but that journey ended after an ectopic pregnancy in mid-2022. Surrogacy is certainly a marathon, not a sprint. We covered so many interesting topics, things like challenges with IVF clinic rules, dramas with egg collection from their egg donor and needing to be a gambling man on a particular decision.

01:37
Birth plans that went out the window leading to an emergency cesarean The cost of surrogacy on the whole and some of the individual costs A potential sibling journey The conundrum with unused embryos when they involve an egg donor The issue for those IPs who work for the New South Wales Government and the same would be in some other states too if they’re considering overseas surrogacy and the implications for their parenting leave And some of the questions typed in during the webinar asked

02:05
Did you have any disagreements with your surrogate? And what advice does Shane have for new intended parents at the beginning of their journey? I hope you enjoy this episode. Shane, thank you for joining us. How did your journey start? Take us back to the beginning. Thanks for having me, Anna, and thanks people for listening. I guess like most gay men, when I first discovered I was gay, I thought I don’t actually want to be gay because I might lose that opportunity of becoming a parent one day.

02:31
And that was a long, you know, battle within myself to think, well, if I do choose to be gay or follow that.

02:38
my sexuality, then I may not ever become a parent, which kind of led me to my career. I’m a primary school teacher and I love kids. I’ve always loved kids, being the fun uncle, the gun cool to all my friends, the gay uncle, if you’re not sure what that means, the gun cool. And yeah, I’ve always just loved kids and loved wanting to have a family. So I used to do CrossFit with, you know, every five days a week or whatever, go to the gym. And funnily enough in our little hometown, there was a lady at the time

03:08
being a surrogate for a gay couple in Sydney. And I’m not sure if you’re aware of them, I won’t mention names, but that’s, I guess, how the person at our gym got the idea into her head initially, and she was like, oh, this person’s doing this at our gym, and it is possible, I have three children. And…

03:26
She didn’t actually love being pregnant, but she just found it really easy. So that’s why she offered to be a surrogate. And I think it was as simple as, I think she slid into my DMs on Instagram and she’s like, do you want to rent my work? Which like just made a joke about it because, and I said, Oh, you know, how much, I mean, did a bit of banter back and forth, back and forth. Then it came to, Oh, she’s actually serious. So, um, next day at the gym, we had to talk about it.

03:50
And she said, if me and my partner, Clinton, would like to have a baby that she would happily, go down the road and carry a baby for us because it was something she found really easy to do. And it was, she got pregnant three times naturally, didn’t need any IVF intervention. She was very fertile as she says. She said, let’s go sort of thing. So then I joined the Australian Surrogacy Facebook page. It was all very new to me. These friends at the gym

04:20
going through a journey at the time I sort of was messaging them backwards and forwards and they were helping me out.

04:25
kind of like a mentor role, but not officially mentors. And then we live in a regional town called Newcastle or in Newcastle. And here we only have two fertility clinics to choose from really. There’s one called Hunter IVF and there’s one called Genea. So unlike capital cities like Sydney and other places, we were kind of limited by choice. So we did the whole thing funnily enough. Clinton and I had to go to the doctors and get a medical certificate from our GP to say that we cannot carry a baby. Yes.

04:55
I found quite ludicrous and ridiculous but anyhow as part of the process we’re both men, we can’t carry a baby. Yes, I think that it’s socially infertile your class. Socially infertile, yes because we’re gay men and then we did that, waited a couple of months because it’s really hard to get into fertility specialists around Newcastle area because there’s not many of them so they’re…

05:16
hard to get into. So I think a three month wait is pretty standard. So then you’re like, you know, scratching your fingers, like getting excited, just hoping and wishing that it’s all going to go to plan. So we had an appointment with one of the clinics and waited and the doctor was really excited. He kind of got us excited. Me, Jess and Clinton were all in the appointment. We all went through the process and on the way home, Clinton and I were driving home and he called us and he said, Oh, hang on, I actually can’t support

05:46
support traditional surrogacy in our clinic. So we paid all this money, we’ve had the court appointments and we’re all excited and then it was like…

05:53
crashing down like instantly. And we’re like, well, where to next? So we tried the other clinic and they had the same rules at the time. Thankfully now I know that I’ve been frustrated to support traditional surrogates, which is great because a couple of years ago they did not. And then kind of sent us on our merry way and just said, you’re gonna have to find another method. Obviously being gay men, we didn’t want to have intercourse with Jessica. And that was just not on the.

06:18
cards because she was offering to be a surrogate. Just thinking about that, I don’t actually think that’s legal in terms of for parentage order and things. No, it wouldn’t be, but it was funny because everyone in our circle of friends and family just joked about it, which I found a little bit offensive, but we got past that. On that, so your first surrogate, Jessica, not only did she offer to be your surrogate, she essentially offered to be your egg donor as well. Was that something you were prepared for at the time or just very grateful for?

06:44
Well, I guess because we didn’t really know much about surrogacy, we didn’t even think about where the eggs were coming from. We were just kind of like, oh, okay, yeah, Jess is going to be our surrogate. And then we’re like, oh, actually, she’s going to be our egg donor and the surrogate. So we were kind of like, oh, Jackpot, like, this is amazing. You know, we’ve got such a kind friend that’s offered to do this for us. And so we had to go down the road of the.

07:05
home insemination, which was awkward in itself, but it was a means to an end. You know, people have been doing it for many years to get pregnant and have quite a high success rate usually. So yeah, we went through that process. At the time it was like we kind of alternated. So one month I would do my sperm, the next month Clint would do his sperm. We’re just going to wait and see who won, I guess, who was successful with the pregnancy. Jessica got pregnant once and then it ended quite badly.

07:34
early on, I think it was about four weeks and it was just what they call chemical pregnancy, I think. So she went to a GP, she’d had an early miscarriage and then we’re like, okay, let’s try again. And she was okay for that. We’d kind of all discussed that we’d try it three times. If it doesn’t work three times, we would have to go to like plan B. So then she got pregnant the next month.

07:55
Yeah, we were all excited. She came over with the stick and she showed us that she was pregnant. And you know, we told our family, our friends and like everyone close by because they knew the journey that we’ve been on. And then when I think we went to the clinic for the 10 week scan, they actually just said, oh, this is not a viable pregnancy. You need to go straight to John Hunt Hospital, which is the hospital close by.

08:17
the clinic was. And so we were kind of like, ah, what do we do? So we took Jess straight to the hospital. Yeah, she had, that’s when she had the ectopic pregnancy in the scar of her previous caesarean because she’d had three caesareans. So I think it’s a like one in a million chance to get that and it happened to us. So all these extra hurdles to become parents and having to go through surrogacy and then to have that medical rarity happen. Wow. So she had that surgically sorted out.

08:47
That was a DNC, a suction one. And then the doctor at the time, the head of the hospital said that she can’t carry on pregnancy. I guess we were all just a bit upset about the loss and about just doing something so lovely for us. And we didn’t want to put her health in any greater risk because they were telling us it was life threatening. And then she actually developed a hematoma in the spot that the fetus was. So then she had to go through a few more like.

09:12
really close monitoring blood tests and things like that to make sure her progesterone levels and things were going back down. So she did that and she was a trooper and amazing and just still, you know, we got through it. And Jessica’s quite a stubborn woman and a very strong-willed woman. And she was like, no, they can’t tell me about it, it’s my body sort of thing. But we had to all agree as adults and just say, look, we need to just stop now, which was devastating. Because not only did we lose our surrogate, we lost our egg donor.

09:39
So that was a good point before to ring up the egg donor because there was something we did never really consider. So we talked to our family, used our network, our village, our friends and kind of bounced off them and they were really supportive through that time. And then Clint’s sister who was just randomly said, have my eggs. I don’t want them.

09:57
So Taneale is Clint’s sister. She was 33 at the time, so perfect age for egg collection. And she just said, have my eggs, and then maybe Jessi can be the sorry one. She’s healed and recovered. So we kind of went to our clinic and we started the process with Taneale being our egg donor. So that was all happened really quickly. Like most people get stressed out about the egg donor situation and egg cycles and egg retrievals. And I think for us that was actually the shortest.

10:26
period of time and it was the quickest thing to happen. She just said, yeah, we all had an hour counselling session with the clinic. And then next month she was on track, they delivered her the medication and she was going in for egg retrieval.

10:38
So that was all kind of a very big whirlwind. She handled the medication like a champ. She was really worried about the trigger shot and all those things, but she had her best friend take it and support her. But then on the day of the egg collection, actually called me to the clinic and they said, we think Taneale might have ovulated. And I was like, oh, what does that mean? They take the trigger shot, which is supposed to stop ovulation, and then they collect the eggs.

11:02
So the blood test that Taneale had just before the procedure said that she might have already ovulated and there was no way of guaranteeing it. So, I mean, it costs about $10,000. And the clinic had said to me, are you a gambling man, Shane? And I remember it so vividly. I was at school in the library, on my lunch break, answering a phone call from Taneale. And they said, are you a gambling man? And I said, lock it in, Eddie, let’s do this. So.

11:27
They said, okay, we’re going to go ahead with it, but you do realize if this doesn’t work, you’re going to have to pay that $10,000 again for another retrieval next month. Then we were kind of like, we don’t care. Let’s go. Let’s just do this. We’ve got here this. Taneale was on board. She was keen to do it and she was really excited. So they actually retrieved 10 eggs, eight of those fertilized, which were really good. One didn’t make it to the six day plus. So we froze seven embryos. Oh, fantastic.

11:55
Very, very impressed with that. Like they’re all very good, like A grade. I don’t know how they really grade them these days, but it’s like grade A and there was like seven of them and they were all six-day blastocysts. They put them on ice and then we just started storing them hoping for Jessie to recover and get better. So she could then go be our surrogate again.

12:16
using IVF and actually going through the process that way. Then we got Jessie in to see the clinic where our MRIs and things were, and the clinic said that they wouldn’t support Jessica being a surrogate because of the ectopic.

12:29
pregnancy and she was too high risk. So we kind of got the eggs, got the embryos, did all that work, done the legals, done the counseling. And then the clinic said no for Jessie to be our surrogate then. So we were kind of like, wow, now we’ve got seven embryos. We’re all excited to be dads. We’ve been pushing. So this happened in 2021 was when Jessie offered. Then in about midway through 2022 was when she couldn’t carry again and we’d already created our embryos. And by that stage,

12:59
Facebook group and I was just getting support off people and you know being really active and talking. I think I shared our story with a few pictures, got a lot of beautiful supportive comments and unfortunately got lots of messages from gay guys asking me about the whole process and not many surrogates. But we just you know, I’m forever an optimist and I always think you know, you’ve got to hustle, you’ve got to kind of hustle in the background, you’ve got to talk to people, you’ve got to bring up in conversations at work, you’ve got to talk to your sisters, cousins, aunties, mother. You know, you’ve really got to advocate for yourself.

13:29
because if you want this dream you’ve got to chase it. I am very persistent I didn’t give up like I was upset it was an emotional rollercoaster. Clint was really supportive and he was amazing and we just had to have the conversation be like look are we gonna keep doing this or are we just gonna donate our embryos to science and just go well we tried to become dads and it’s there’s no more like

13:50
We don’t have any help. And then Teneale, who’s our egg donor kid sister, my sister-in-law, but we’re not married. So technically, my sister-in-law, she wrote a beautiful message and she shared it on Facebook. Just kind of, it wasn’t asking for a surrogate. It was more just about saying that we’ve been through a bit of hardship and we’ve had a few unfortunate things happen and just sort of putting it out there on Facebook if anyone could help or if anyone knew anyone that would like to. So.

14:15
as if to find somebody to help make these embryos that she’s helped create find a home to grow them in.

14:21
Yeah, exactly. It was very beautiful, very nice message, very thoughtful. And then obviously, I think you’ve got shared about 19 times, like amongst our friends and family, people that I didn’t even know. You know, a lot of people were talking, a few people sent messages, a lot of people offering and saying, you know, oh, I wish I could, but I can’t, sort of thing, which is beautiful. And then Jessie, who was our original star, kept saying she wants to do it. We’re like, no, Jessica, the doctors have said no, like it’s time, you know, we need you’re beautiful person. We’re so grateful. But

14:49
we need to just test her luck and see. And then my sister started messaging me saying, one of my friends, Jenny, who’s I also know because I sold her her first dog, like when I was about 16, my dog had a raw wheel of puppies and I sold it to Jenny who was the love of her life for a long time. And I said, oh, Jenny, like, yeah, hadn’t really spoken to her or connected to her for a few years. But I know that she’s always been a really friend to my sister. So I was like, well, that’s a known person. And I just, we just kind of instantly trusted her.

15:19
because she’s been friends with my sister for about 25, 29 years. Since high school, I think, and they’ve still maintained a good close friendship. So I was like, you know, my parents knew her, her parents knew my sister. So I was all very like, we’re very lucky. Sometimes it’s a bit like that, isn’t it? It’s almost like a background check. If you know the same people, it’s a bit like dating sometimes, isn’t it? That’s that, OK, other people know that you’re a decent human being and I know that you can raise a dog and.

15:43
you know, therefore you’re a decent human and she’s a mum herself too. So yeah, that’s extra lovely connections there and both surrogates starting with a J too. Yes, it gets very confusing so sorry but the amazing women. So yes, so Jen, my sister, I think she was the person in the middle because I guess Jenny, like most surrogates had a few doubts. Like she didn’t know if she was at the ideal weight, she thought she might have been too old, she was questioning whether she could do it or not and so my sister was kind of the person in the middle and I think she ended up just saying

16:13
call him. And so Jenny had made an appointment with a doctor and just a GP to see if she was eligible to have another pregnancy. So I kind of said, go to your GP, get a check out, talk to your husband, talk to your son, you know, make sure it’s something that you can. But I was so lucky because Jenny had already, she knew about the surrogacy law, she knew about parentage, she knew about some things because her older sister had actually had fertility problems and her and her other sister were.

16:41
I guess, prepped up to be a surrogate for her sister if that time had come around, but the sister didn’t end up going down the road of having children. So she’d already done lots of research, which was great. And she knew lots about it. She works in the medical field. So she knew all the ins and outs of embryos and ultrasounds. And she used to be a sonographer and work as a hunter imaging and stuff. So she knew lots about it. So I was just like, this is jackpot. Oh my God, amazing. So Clinton, I had spoken about it because he didn’t really know Jenny or anything.

17:10
I think my partner is very different to me. He’s an introvert, I’m an extrovert. He’s very quiet. If there’s a party in the room, he’ll be sitting there just observing everybody, not talking, whereas I’d be talking to air off people about how fast, amazing I am.

17:23
So we’re very different, chocolate cheese, yin and yang, but we work, we’ve got a very good solid relationship. So he trusted, I guess, my family and my idea that Jenny would be suitable. So yeah, I think then Jenny sent us a message, she had talked about it, a text message or something. She was like, I think I wanna do it, I’m gonna be so good. So then it all, yeah, it all just kind of fell into place from there. We got her appointment to see our fertility specialist and she got the okay from our fertility specialist because she’d only carried one pregnancy and had a natural birth.

17:53
So very minimalistic obstetrics complications or anything. She was so determined and she was so efficient. We don’t call in Jenny our like surrogate PA because she would like love to book all the appointments and she’d like turn up all the time. She was always early. She would, and we’re like, oh my God, we’ve really got jackpot here. Sometimes because she was on the work clock and things like that.

18:17
We’d go and show for a pickup for the appointments and things like that. But we’d sneak her off to lunch instead, like after the pre-appointments. And, you know, it was really nice and really fun experience. What was the rough time frame? Do you remember the month and year of when you first connected with Jenny through to having some chats about what does this look like for a soul and introducing?

18:37
Clinton to her and you reintroducing yourself to her and then the counseling and the paperwork. Do you remember how long roughly? How many months? Look, I’m terrible with dates and I always struggle to even remember Clinton’s birthday which was shocking. But I think it was about…

18:49
maybe close. It was about two years from like start to baby. That’s, that’s pretty average, I’d say. I’ve seen on the Surrogacy Facebook page that some people meet their Saga when they’ve had a baby and I’m like, wow, it took us like, it’s taken us so long and I don’t know how you’ve got all your ducks in a row, but that’s really organized. She just was really determined from the get go. Like she was.

19:09
wanting to be like a healthier soul. She wanted to like know everything about circuses. We catch up every month and have like a dinner with her family. Yeah, it was just really effortless. It was like, it wasn’t hard at all. It was actually a beautiful journey. I was thinking we should probably go to some of the photos now. And cause that probably helps tell us a little bit more of it. There is so much to share.

19:30
I know. Well let’s just go through these photos a little bit. We’ve got a photo of the embryo there and then some of the… That was our embryo number seven that worked and that’s all the scans of Eastern, our baby point. When you say embryo number seven that didn’t take seven goes did it? It was just numbers? No no, they’re numbered and they were numbered so I we always thought that lucky number seven was going to win and that’s the one embryologist chose. Yeah that’s the one that worked first transfer. So um Eastern was the first embryo transfer.

19:58
Um, Janay were very strict on their transfer guidelines. I think at one point Jenny’s body wasn’t really cooperating with the medication. She didn’t ovulate. So that put us back a month.

20:07
And then her whole family got COVID and it was just such bad timing because we’re about to do our first transfer. And then Jenny rang me and tears the poor thing saying, oh, we’ve all got COVID and I can’t go to the embryo transfer. And then because that was all quite new and the fertility clinic didn’t know what happens to the embryo transfer into COVID positive patients. They just were like, we’re not going to do this. We need to wait six weeks now until it’s out of the system and clear. So that was a little bit of a delay there. But that was yes.

20:37
incubator where you can see the embryos grow and I got all the photos on my phone so we’d watch them every day like one two like

20:44
to day six and they were all mutating and dividing beautifully. That was really cool because I’m a bit of a science nerd. That was a cool science process. Yes. And then, yes, we’ll just go through these photos, some lovely scans. And as you’ve mentioned before, Jenny doesn’t really like many photos, so we don’t have too many of her there. Yeah, I’m fine with the photos, but I did try and get a few. And an announcement here? That we put out to everybody on Facebook and social media. Everyone was really thrilled for us. It took a few goes to get there, but we got there in the end.

21:14
And then Jenny was sending her pregnant belly photos to you. So yeah, Jenny would send every week a pregnant belly in the same outfit, in the same mirror. And that was great because we could just see him grow and we’d catch up like every month or so whilst she was pregnant. I organised this was our, we just had a little gender reveal at home with our family and like mums and dads, sisters and whatnot. I made a little fruited like a slip at the, just after I cut it, I said, well, I knew it wouldn’t be a girl. And it was actually a boy. So I let the cut out of the bag just before I cut the cake and all the blue smarties came out.

21:44
Oh, gosh.

21:45
ruin the gender reveal. It did. And then we come to birth which was earlier than planned. But earlier than planned but yeah Jenny had a really textbook great pregnancy all the way through. She was really happy, like loved being pregnant as much as someone can and she was yeah giving us all updates. Everything was fine, all the vitals were fine, all the appointments. We’d go pick her up and show her to all the appointments. We didn’t miss an appointment. Even if it was a blood test or a scan we were at every one of them and she jokes saying that’s more than

22:15
her husband was, but anyhow, that’s a funny thing. Clinton, I don’t know if we had a little feeling, but we were talking to Jenny on a Sunday night and I said, Jenny’s 36 weeks this week and we’ve got a scan on Thursday. We need to start putting our phones on loud and put them in our bedroom because we usually charge them in the kitchen, not in our bedroom. And then we’re talking to Jenny lots on that Sunday night, that night o’clock. And then we went to bed and then we got a phone call at four o’clock in the morning and we both jumped up going, Oh my God. And Clint’s like, Clint actually hung

22:45
to sell his car at the time. And I was like, no, no, it’s Jenny, like half asleep. So we called her back and she said that she was having some cramps that she thought she might have a UTI. She called the hospital like just to double check and they said, come in. Jenny’s also a strong independent woman. And she was like, I’ll just drive myself there. And we’re like, no, you will not sit tight. We’ll be at your house shortly. So we might’ve sped a little bit to Jenny’s house because it’s 20 minutes away. And then when we’re about five minutes from turning the corner to her house, she called again saying,

23:15
guys my water’s just broken all over the floor, the laundry floor and we’re like ah okay I guess he’s coming early. So yeah we picked her up and floored it to the hospital which was quite funny because we arrived there at five o’clock in the morning and all of the hospital staff were just waiting. We went to the public hospital John Hunter in Newcastle. They were actually amazing throughout the whole process. They gave us a midwife.

23:36
for continuation of care through the whole process. And we also had a social worker, just because of the complexities that surrogacy does have sometimes. And when we walked in, they were all, Jenny’s like, I’m having a baby. And they just, yeah, ushered us in. And we had so many doctors and nurses and everyone there. It was actually perfect timing. We could get a park and there was, you know, no one really in the hospital. So we were very lucky.

23:59
Then they went to monitor her belly and stuff as they do, because she was in contraction, she wasn’t dilated or anything. But every time she would get a contraction, that would lose Easton’s heart rate. So the baby’s heart rate was plummeting, but it was coming back up. So they tried a few things, they tried the doppel thing on the head, I don’t know if that’s called, where they put the thing on the head and that didn’t work. And then when the midwife was going, I think you guys are having a baby before breakfast.

24:26
So she was very experienced and yeah, then all of a sudden all the doctors rushed in and they’re like, we’re going for an emergency cesarean. So Clint and I were chucking our scrubs on like what happens in the movies and then we’re running down. They were putting stockings on Jenny, like it was all very fast and very quick because they were just really concerned about his heart rate because it was dropping. Jenny was fine at that stage, but just…

24:47
starting to go into active labor. So yeah, they took us to the ward and that was at five o’clock in the morning, we got to the hospital and he was born at 7.03 AM, 7.02. Weighing a little 2.2 kilos and he was jaundice. He was breathing, he had a little breathing tube there for maybe like a couple of two or three hours, but then they took that off and he was just really only went to NICU for low birth weight and he was jaundice. And it was on the 12th of the second 2024 this year. He was due on 15th of March, I think.

25:17
Wow, what a year it’s been then. So it’s just got some lovely photos to finish off here. So this was Jenny’s first cuddle with Aston and that was us and you can see how tiny he is in that car seat. That was the terrible nurses photo from the hospital. But anyhow.

25:32
It’s one to keep. Yeah, that was a little Eastern after he’d been in NICU at John Hunter Hospital for eight days. They just kept really close eye on him and it was actually a really good transition into parenting because we didn’t have to do all the late night feeds and stuff to start with. Yes. And we kind of eased ourselves into it because we’re a bit scared to take him home so little.

25:51
Well, that’s true, yes. But yeah, that picture of Jenny is made and then this is, it just really captures the moment with those two. And this is Teneale, he’s egg donor. We had a nine month photo shoot with the whole extended family and some beautiful photos of Teneale and Eastern, who she’s holding there. Beautiful. And he’s obviously really happy. This was another photo shoot, our first family photo in our house with Eastern. It was…

26:17
probably six or seven months old there. And then from that photo shoot, the photographer asked if we’d be models for a Father’s Day photo shoot because Father’s Day was coming up. So she came to our farm because she wanted cows and I’ve seen the picture. So yeah, we did that for free and she got some beautiful photos of us again. Beautiful, yes. So finish off you guys being dads and that’s now part of your life, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s now part of our life. It’s amazing. He’s a unicorn baby. He sleeps through the night since about three or four months old. And he…

26:45
loves his food and he’s always happy. And Jenny did an amazing job. She actually gave him the best start to life by expressing her milk, I think for the first five and a half months. And then we had some extra in the freezer, because she was getting quite a lot at the beginning. So we got him through the six months with.

27:00
exclusively breastfed. And we’d just go and pick up the milk every second day from Jenny and then it kind of dwindled down to every four days. And then we’d go once a week and she’d put it in the freezer for us. It was a really good way to see her. Also after the birth, they put Jenny, even though it was a public hospital, they put her down the floor from us in her own private room with an en suite. And she was there for a week because she ended up having a caesarean and we could just go up and down and collect some milk from her and she could come have a cuddle. And it was actually a really beautiful process. Her family could come visit her.

27:30
and they could come and say, hey, Stim.

27:32
We could do it vice versa and go and get her a coffee and caramel slice and things from the cafe when she wanted something naughty. Amazing experience. A lot of people were kind of dissing Public Hospital and saying that they need to go private because of its surrogacy journey. But we had a phenomenal experience with John Hunt Hospital in public and they really cared for us. They respected the fact that we were the dads and Jenny was the surrogate. It was written on our discharge papers. All the nurses were aware of it. They were all very respectful and not pulling in mom. And you know, it was like this surrogate stance.

28:02
stairs and because I think for some people that might be offensive but Clinton and I didn’t really bother us because you know they’re busy nurses in a hospital going oh how’s mum how’s dad doing so we were just kind of like yeah we’re happy to you know she’s the surrogate mother of our child and she birthed him into the world and she did an amazing job so yeah it was a really great experience we still

28:21
catch up quite often. What is often? Yeah, it’s kind of between maybe like once a month or something at the moment and whenever we can, we’re both a bit busy. She’s started a new job. My partner Clint’s started a new job and we’ve got a baby. Yes. Well, he’s not a baby that is nine months old now, but yes, he’s still a baby that can crawl. So he’s into everything at the moment. Well, it’s what a journey you have been on and a credit to your team. I think you’ve done this so well and me having heard so many stories over the years.

28:48
It sounds perfect the way you’ve navigated that and the amount of contact and how you, you know, during the hospital seeing each other and having visits. Well done. You’ve done credit to Surrogacy in Australia. There has been one question that’s come in and it’s, thanks you for sharing your beautiful story. This is always a question that you’re welcome to choose to not answer, which says, how much roughly did it all cost? Before you answer that, I’m going to preface that with, well, I actually have a spreadsheet that I’ll, I’ve got a survey that I’ll send you to fill out for me because I collect some data on this.

29:18
over the years. The average is about 60,000. That’s what my surrogate baby costs the dads because 30,000 of that was IVF with no rebates to egg collections, three transfers sort of thing. The range is about 35 to 90,000. So those people at the $35,000 in it probably worked first embryo transfer and one egg collection, no loss of wages, no travel and accommodation. And up at the $90,000 end, if you live in to state from each other and have travel and accommodation, multiple egg

29:47
Shane, did you want to give us a rough number or say, are you roughly up the high? I’m more than happy to give a rough number. I think we’ve kind of crunched the numbers that would be around about 70,000. And we were kind of building a house at the same time. So I don’t recommend building a house and having a surrogacy journey at the same time. But you might need to sell some of your beloved stuff that you wish you could get back like your BMW.

30:09
I think we were very lucky to have First Transfer worked. Jenny lived close by. The parentage order was like a lot more expensive than we.

30:17
had anticipated. So that was kind of like at the end, oh, you need a 10 grand for your parentage order. We’re like, what? Um, so obviously, because you’ve just been through this massive process, you want to make it official and legal. Yeah, we just had to pay, like come up with the money and pay for it because it was very expensive at the end, which we were not expecting. And, um, we had the best birth plan anyone could imagine. Jenny was going natural. She was doing this. We had it all down pat.

30:43
And even the best laid plans, cross your T’s, dodge your I’s, it all went out the window because Eastern came early. So given that we had to pay Jenny some wages, which we didn’t sort of factor into it, but yeah, then she started getting the sentencing like parental payments, which was good and we just kind of topped up her work pay. So yeah, about, I reckon about 70,000 out of pocket. Now it does mean that you’ve got six embryos left in the freezer and I know we’ve been chatting about there’s a potential sibling journey here with…

31:10
Jenny’s one and done. But in theory, that second journey might be smoother because you’ve got the embryos made and you know what to expect and you might be able to shop around a bit more for a different lawyer. I can hook you up to somebody a little bit cheaper. Is that a plan? Just last week, actually, we just put a post out there just sharing some information, just saying that we’re looking for a sibling journey. We do have seven embryos. I’m kind of, it’s really playing an emotional toll on me to kind of get rid of them after we went through so much of an effort.

31:40
to make them and in saying that not get rid of them as such but as because as gay men our eggs with donations from a donor we can’t then donate our embryos so they only can get donated to science or they can get terminated so i’ve been really kind of like oh that’s seven you know six lives or six potential children we could have

32:02
Not that we want six children, is that a bit crazy? Easton’s just such a good baby and we’ve just loved being dads. Like we just thought if we can be lucky enough and grateful enough, or you know, we’ve been very lucky to have two surrogates and two egg donors, and we’ve had every come to us so easily. So we feel a bit bad because we haven’t had to really search for those surrogates and any egg donors. It’s all just kind of fallen in our lap and we’re like, what do we do with them? Yes, definitely keen for a sibling journey, if it’s possible.

32:32
We have looked into, because we do have an embryos created, it’s probably a lot cheaper to go overseas. But the only thing that’s deterring us from doing that is I work for the government. And at the moment, the government don’t recognize overseas surrogacies. So I won’t be entitled to any of my leaves, which I’m currently entitled to now for Eastern. So if you enter into a commercial surrogacy overseas and work for New South Wales government, you’re not entitled to any parental leave because it’s classified as a legal to enter

33:02
you live in New South Wales. So in saying that we really loved being involved like we took Jenny to every single appointment. We had time off work.

33:10
You know, we moved heaven and earth so that we could be there and really be part of the process. And that was, I mean, Jenny will say to everyone that she was so supported and she loved how supportive we were of her and still are. But yeah, that was, I guess, the main reason we didn’t go overseas. Not that we couldn’t afford it, but it was just that if you have a baby, you need leave the time to look after them and not have no income. So it just does. It’s not feasible for us to not have any income for 12 months to look after a child. So really valuable insight there.

33:40
Thanks you for sharing your story. He asks, did you have any disagreements or differing views with your surrogate around health, birth, or anything else overall in the surrogacy process? And how did you handle these disagreements? Jenny’s probably not gonna like me for mentioning this one, but yes, we did. And it was quite early on.

33:57
My team had plenty of conflict. So we got really- We only had one that was like a big one, but Jenny, as I said before, strong, independent, lovely, beautiful woman, she really didn’t see eye to eye with our counselor to the point where she rang me in tears going, I can’t talk to her anymore, I can’t do this, I don’t think I can leave, sorry, Greg. So it was just a matter of like talking to her, just saying, look, you just need to listen, just listen to what she has to say, she’s very experienced, blah, blah, blah. And we, yeah, so we got over that hurdle that way.

34:27
Jenny and she’s been through the counselling with the same counsellor and she also did relinquishment counselling with that counsellor. She was saying that she really loves that counsellor but in that time…

34:36
in that frame of mind that she was in. She just had a real personality clash with our psychologist, which was predicted, unheard of, unseen. And really the COVID thing also, there was all that nuance around that and not knowing, you know, if the embryos that we had paid lots of money to create would be affected by the COVID disease. But we were just like, we’re not in any rush. If it just delays another month, we’ve waited this long, don’t be upset, Jenny. We’ll just wait, like we’ll just go.

35:05
you know, next month or the cycle after. So, yeah, no, we got on really well. If there was anything that Cheney actually didn’t tell us, but no, it was just so, so, so transparent and really good communication. If you don’t have that really good communication. So we end up having to have a messenger.

35:23
Facebook Messenger group and it had Jenny, Clinton and myself on it and everything that we went through we’d talk it out and then if it would like within agree on something communication is just very vital because not only that you’ve got like Jenny’s got her husband who’s involved and her child and most surrogates if they’re married it’s like you’re also navigating like their marriage as well as yours and how you fit into the jigsaw puzzle so it can be quite complex but we’ll

35:52
Jenny, with Jessie, we didn’t have any conflicts, although she was very stubborn and some things that she didn’t want to do, she just wouldn’t do it. It was like leading a horse to water and she would just draw it, no way. She’s, you couldn’t convince her, you couldn’t entice her. You couldn’t, when she had a mindset on something, that was it, like there was no changing her mind. She’s very strong in that moment. Yes, I remember for my team, I felt like I had three husbands for two and a half years.

36:19
Because having a baby is really intimate and you usually only do that with your partner, but you’re doing that with multiple people. So navigating a dynamic like that with multiple adults takes a lot of communication. It does. And I think that was the main, if we just had to keep saying, we need to communicate about it, just talk about it, talk it through. Are there any other last bits of parting advice then or things from your team and your journey that you’d…

36:42
really like to make sure we pass on to others? I just think if I can help someone know that it’s possible in Australia, it’s possible to have a beautiful surrogacy relationship where we’re now so grateful that we’re fathers. It’s also very new in Australia and just to know that we’re kind of like, we’re gay dads in its 2024 and we have a son and we live in a regional area of New South Wales. It’s just very refreshing to know that it’s where, you know, welcomed with open arms,

37:12
great with us, mostly apart from not doing traditional surrogacy. But yeah, everyone who’s been involved in our surrogacy, like you have an entourage of people that you work with, I like to call it our entourage, and they’ve all been wonderful. So I think it is possible. It’s an emotional rollercoaster. And as you said a few times throughout this seminar or this webinar, it’s not for the faint-hearted. And it’s definitely, you need to keep advocating for yourself. You need to be the driving force and not in an arrogant or a pushy type of way,

37:42
the cogs turning, otherwise it will just stop and it’ll fall flat. And then that’s when you have problems. You’ve got to just, I pride myself on being a very, I guess, anal, anally organized person. So I had everything organized to the unth degree and that’s.

37:56
I’m part of my profession because I’m a teacher and I have to be organized. Otherwise stuff goes out and I had everything set. I’d resend people reminders. And I think I was kind of like the project manager. Jenny was our PA organizing the appointments and stuff to suit her because it was her work schedule that we had to usually work around. Clinton and I would just take a day off whenever we didn’t, we just sent to our bosses, we’re planning a baby. This is going to take some work, some effort. We’re going to have some date and they’re just like, yeah, we support you 100%. Take the time whenever you need it. So now both of our works are really good.

38:26
And yeah, we just had to say, we’re going to take her, even if it was for like a scan, it took 15 minutes. We would drive to her house an hour, we’d pick her up, we’d take her out for lunch, we’d take her to the scan or bus or something, whichever way it works.

38:38
because she had to have an empty bladder. So we’d take her to the scan, then take her out for lunch. And we just made sure we didn’t miss, that we were very present, didn’t miss an appointment, whether it be a blood test or just make sure she was really supported. And even simple things like going to drive her to the appointment, because we knew that Jenny got stressed out driving in traffic because she lived out of Newcastle. So when she drove into the city of Newcastle, she would get anxious and get stressed. And we didn’t want our pregnant surrogate being stressed and anxious trying to find a parking. So we’d just go, don’t worry,

39:08
time and take people away from you.

39:10
be there. So yeah, just be present. It’s a beautiful experience. And we’re so grateful now to be dads. And it’s just, yeah, it’s everything that we dreamed of. And we’re so lucky. You know, I kind of feel bad when I see all these posts of people wanting surrogates because I’ve had a surrogacy journey. But we were also at that point at one point, you know, in 2021, it’s taken us four years to get a child. So and we’ve had an emotional rollercoaster along the way. So yeah, just hang in there. Be optimistic and just keep chasing your dreams really.

39:40
My team did similar things that they, I wanted them to experience the full inconvenience of pregnancy and so they were at everything as though it was their pregnancy and it’s all those chances to catch up in those car drives and while you’re waiting for appointments so your credit to how we feel surrogacy should and could be done in Australia if you live locally to each other. Both of ours live 20 minutes from us so that was just unheard of.

40:02
Yeah, well done. Well, and then maybe in the future there’ll be a sibling journey and we could have you back on and hear how round Hopefully. Yeah, it’s been great. Thank you for having me. Oh Thank you for sharing your time and your story Thank you for listening to this episode to see the beautiful images mentioned head to our YouTube channel to watch the webinar recording

40:22
If you’re looking for more support and potentially connecting with a surrogate or intended parents, head to our website, surr to check out the resources and to learn more about SAS. Please subscribe to this podcast if you’ve found it valuable and share it with someone so they too can benefit from this conversation. Until next time, welcome to the village.