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Episode 76 – Navigating Post Birth – Katrina Hale – Psychologist

Katrina is a Psychologist and Infertility Counsellor with over 25 years counselling experience. She is passionate about surrogacy and a strong supporter of all walks of the community that wish to create a family through surrogacy or assisted reproduction. She is committed to helping Intending Parents and Surrogates and their partners successfully navigate their surrogacy journey together.

If you’d like to arrange your own session with Katrina, you can find her on her website.

Join Katrina in unpacking the must-dos for new parents. Helping parents navigate the first few months of parenthood and supporting their surrogate during the fourth trimester.

This episode was recorded in October 2024.

This episode can also be watched on YouTube.

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These podcasts were recorded as part of the free webinar series run by Surrogacy Australia. If you would like to attend one, head to this page for dates and registration links. The recording can also be found on our YouTube channel so you can see the photos that are described. Find more podcast episodes here.

The webinars are hosted by Anna McKie who is a gestational surrogate, high school Math teacher and surrogacy educator working with Surrogacy Australia and running SASS (Surrogacy Australia’s Support Service). 

Follow Surrogacy Australia on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube

Are you an Intended Parent (IP) who is looking to find a surrogate, or a surrogate looking for Intended Parents? Join SASS.

TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE

00:00
Thanks for watching!

00:14
Welcome to Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series. I’m your host Anna McKie, and my aim is to raise the level of awareness of surrogacy through these conversations. This podcast is a recording from a webinar that I host, and you can find more details about those and upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org The webinars are free, go for an hour, and will take you through how surrogacy works in Australia. You can ask questions, typing them in anonymously if you prefer.

00:42
and you hear from a co-host who has navigated surrogacy in Australia, either a surrogate, a gay dad or a straight mum. This episode, recorded in October 2024, was different to the standard webinars as it featured psychologist Katrina Hale and was done in partnership with Australian Surrogacy and Donor Week. It was the inaugural year of that event and the plan is to continue that partnership into the future. Keep an eye on their website at asdw.au

01:10
and join us in their national Facebook group for ongoing support named Australian Surrogacy and Donation. You can find Katrina Hale at katrinahalepsychology if you’d like to arrange your own session. Katrina is becoming a regular on my webinar series for which I am very grateful. You can find all of her episodes on our website, surrogacy australia forward slash podcast forward slash Katrina Hale.

01:35
Some appearances have been converted to podcast episodes, but they are all available on our YouTube channel called Surrogacy Australia. In this episode, Katrina references her extensive guide, which is the go-to resource for many surrogacy teams. It can be found on her website and in our SASS portal for members, and it’s called Surrogate Emotional Needs, Post-Birth Guide for Intended Parents.

01:59
This episode is more of a specific guide for the intended parents, the IPs post-birth. It addresses the sometimes controversial topic of getting your baby into a routine, how to be flexible in the first six weeks post-birth, leaning on the village to help the IPs with other life tasks so they can support their surrogate, and being as prepared as possible for the paperwork for the parentage order. Please share this episode with your own surrogacy team.

02:23
or listen to it in the future when you have a team. Even come back to it on multiple occasions as a check-in. I’d love to hear your feedback about this episode, so please send me a message either through Messenger, email, or the Surrogacy Australia social media accounts. I hope you enjoy this episode.

02:39
So I’ll kick off and I’ll say hello everyone and welcome to Surrogacy Australia’s webinar in conjunction with the Australian Surrogacy and Donor Week. My name is Anna McKay and I gave birth as an altruistic surrogate four years ago. Firstly I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land upon which we are recording, listening and living on and pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. And tonight my co-host is Katrina Hale from Sydney. Hello Katrina. Hello Anna, hello everybody. So for those that don’t know Katrina, she’s a psychologist and infertility counselor

03:09
with over 25 years counseling experience. She’s passionate about surrogacy and a strong supporter of all walks of the community that wish to create a family through surrogacy or assisted reproduction. And she’s committed to helping intended parents, IPs and surrogates and their partners navigate successful surrogacy journeys together. I’ll also mention that.

03:28
Katrina’s had an unusually busy week. Both of her parents were involved in a fairly serious car accident a week ago, and she’s been pretty much by their side in hospital for this last week. So she’s been.

03:39
off the grid and this is her one thing that she’s attended to this week so we are very grateful for your time Katrina. Apologies if anybody’s listening, she hasn’t replied to an email, she’ll get to you. It’s also slightly different because we don’t have our full set of slideshows tonight, we’ve just got one to give you a picture of an idea but then it’s a concept discussion tonight. So welcome Katrina and thank you for joining us, particularly after the week you’ve had. Thank you and my cat as well. She missed me terribly. I’m sure there’s plenty of people listening tonight who have their pets handy

04:09
Okay Katrina, so kick us off. What are we going to talk through tonight? I just really wanted to, it’s really a support session for intended parents just to really acknowledge.

04:20
the demands of the intended parent role, particularly navigating the post-birth period. So, because there’s so much effort that goes into getting on the surrogacy journey to start with, I say to get to the starting line of surrogacy is enormous effort. And then to navigate the journey of surrogacy to birth is enormous effort. But it’s not over then. It still continues on with everything that happens post-birth. And I remember when I first started working in surrogacy.

04:50
the paperwork required post-birth to do the parentage order, you know, for surrogacy. And I remembered when I just had a baby, I was like, I don’t know how I would have coped with that. It was enough for me just looking after a baby, you know, and I was like, all these poor people, these poor people having to, you know, like adjust to becoming a parent and do affidavits and attend counseling sessions and all this stuff on top of, you know, navigating becoming a parent. And then they’ve got the responsibility of supporting their surrogate. And I was like, whoa, this is a lot. So

05:20
really sort of looking at like what are the priorities in that sort of package and how do we make sure that we’ve got enough support because I think oftentimes intended parents are extraordinarily resilient, you know, and extraordinarily stoic and extraordinarily well organized. They’ve held it together. Significant burden of the surrogacy has fallen on their shoulders. Yeah, once we get to the post-birth period, we need to look at like what’s supporting the entire system. What support can we, you know, how can we support intended parents?

05:46
so that then they can, you know, look after their baby and then they could support their surrogate and they can get the parent to do what they’ve done without any of those pretty things that are put on the back burner or neglected because there’s just too much overwhelm. You know, they just don’t have the capacity for that. There is a lot to consider. It’s not just two people coming together to have a baby. There’s, as you say, there’s the baby obviously, themselves, their surrogate, and then the paperwork that goes with it. It’s a tough gig, this surrogacy. Oh, it’s a tough gig.

06:12
It’s a tough gig. Would you like me to go to the slideshow now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m sharing a screen of a fantastic graph image, if you like, that Katrina has, you know, created come from her many years of experience for those that can’t see it.

06:27
My suggestion is that you can find it in a previous webinar that Katrina and I did. So our webinars are recorded and then they are put on our YouTube channel at Surrogacy Australia. And this one was under the topic of team culture and then these get turned into a podcast. And so you can subscribe to that on Spotify or Apple and this is episode number 63. And so we talked about the team culture of what happens during…

06:50
the whole surrogacy journey. And then this particular image talks about that, that project relationship, the enormity of doing the project of surrogacy up until the point that baby’s born. And then as the new parents go into the enormity of the, that next project of being a new parent and navigating out of that part of the surrogacy project. So what more would you like to tell us about this image here, Katrina?

07:11
Okay, yeah, so it operates as a timeline, you know, from left to right. If you look at like the amount of space that each block takes up, you know, that sort of represents time and energy, really. You know, the project relationship, it takes up a lot of time and energy. But then if you look at where that new parent zone comes in, that’s obviously Earth, you know, in that little cross over there. So you can see that all of a sudden, if you thought the project relationship, what was going on, the project relationship was demanding, by adding the new parent zone to that,

07:41
a lot. So it’s like, well, if we look at that just in terms of climate energy and resourcing, it’s really obvious that when we get there, we support that we need a whole lot of resourcing, because we have to support people who’ve just become parents for the first time, which anybody who’s become a parent for the first time knows what a crazy ride that is.

08:00
We’ve got to support the heritage order going through, application being submitted within six months with all the requirements for that, particularly in say New South Wales and Queensland and Northern Territory where there’s counselling requirements and things like that. So it’s not just a straightforward paperwork process and things like that. And we’ve also got to support providing the appropriate transitional support to a surrogate, as the whole team sort of transitions out over that first 12 months to the future, which is basically intended parents of parents.

08:30
got the Surroship, which is like the story of the surrogacy and the identity of the child, and then the foundational friendship or family. As anybody who’s become a parent knows, it’s like that new parent zone. It stays pretty demanding for the next 20 years or so, you know? True. In different sorts of ways, though, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah. So as we’re sort of planning this session in terms of the different stages or…

08:53
group this webinar and this discussion in. And so I guess it’s this beginning stage of acknowledging and having some compassion for the IPs really as they navigate this new parenthood as well as that surrogacy support for their surrogate and the legals. That’s sort of what you’ve been saying for this first part. And I think it’s really, I mean you love the village concept Anna, I know that. If the intended parents have been the support system for their surrogate, it’s like when we get to this stage we almost need sort of like a frame around the intended parents and their

09:23
is support for that team, you know, as that team transitions post-birth.

09:28
If we look just in terms of time and energy, where is it important that time and energy goes? Time and energy and attention needs to go for the new parents becoming new parents, which is a huge transition. Time and energy needs to go to meeting the needs of the baby because they’re 100% in their life. Time and energy needs to go and attention needs to go to getting the parentage order done and time and energy needs to go to emotionally supporting the surrogate and physically supporting the surrogate post-plant. There’s a whole lot of other stuff that needs to get done.

09:58
food needs to get jobs done, dogs need to be walked, lawns need to be mowed, all that sort of life admin stuff. So it’s sort of like really looking at like, what’s the stuff that only the intended parents can do and what’s the stuff that we can outsource. So in the same way as when the surrogate was navigating surrogacy and being.

10:16
pregnant. The intended parents were sort of there to fill that sort of shortfall and gap between the demand on her and her capacity to maintain her life. Now they’ve got more demand on them. So it’s ridiculous to think that they are now going to be capable of being her support system while also being the support system to a baby, while also getting a parentage order done, while also dealing with becoming a new parent and everything that comes with that and holding their sanity together.

10:42
for intended parents also to look at like, well, what can you outsource? Who’s in your support network? You know, who can come and cook food for you or walk your dog or mow your lawn or clean your house or whatever, whatever, whatever. Like it’s really a broader community model to sort of support everybody. You know, like what resources can we pull in from your community to support your surrogate, you know, what resources in your surrogate’s community.

11:06
So that, you know, it’s really that sort of village concept around all of you, rather than, you know, it’s like we’ve sort of got into the parents and, you know, their camp and surrogate and her camp and, you know, you’re still a team. So, you know, how are we going to get all those priorities met, you know, without burning anybody out or breaking anybody’s heart? So, because, yes, I was going to ask, well, how do people do it? And it also sounds like what you’re saying is you need to bring your village in. You need to let people help and let them do jobs and you need to ask them.

11:35
to help because the new parents have got all of this extra paperwork and their surrogacy team to support as well as the baby. That’s unusual. And so they’re going to need to call on other people. Yeah. And that’s the thing, I think, you know, particularly for intended parents, you know, because to navigate the intended parent role, you need to be really good at project management. It’s a high demand role. Your intended parents are sort of, you know, they’re functional and in control and project management and things have gone smoothly.

12:02
from sort of what’s common sort of experience. Let’s say someone has been in a corporate role and they’ve had things really well managed. How many stories do we hear about? Then they have a baby and they’re at home and they’re just like, oh my God, it’s like, this one isn’t following the rules. And they find it really challenging. They’re used to having things in routine and order and stuff. So it’s sort of being able to manage the chaos of it. It’s like supporting the whole whole system with that. That’s definitely with me. And when you talk about corporate, I mean, I’m a high school teacher is my other job.

12:32
teachers apparently are notorious for struggling and I certainly did. I’ll just share a little story about my two kids that um because teachers lives work by bells and routines and and so we therefore eventually would like our children into that routine and I certainly struggled with my first. I don’t know if that contributed to the postnatal depression. Clearly my body you know had trouble adjusting to the hormones but it was that idea that my child trying to get my child into a routine that didn’t necessarily work to

13:02
around with my son it was more um because I had a toddler a two-year-old to look after it was more I had an idea of the routine that we wanted but it was sort of okay here’s when the nap times are going to be give or take half an hour type of thing yeah there’s so many becoming a parent you know all the

13:18
the good advice that you get as in, you know, well, it’s very important to get your child into a routine, very important that your child sleeps through the night. And it’s almost like a badge of success. You know, it’s like, oh, well, my child’s sleeping through the night, you know, oh, well, my child’s in a routine, oh, my child’s doing this. It’s sort of like going.

13:32
you know, you’re a successful parent and there’s pressure on intended parents, you know, it’s sort of like, well, I’ve got to, you know, I’ve worked so hard for this and someone’s been so generous as to give me this gift and I’ve put so much effort into this. It’s like, I need to nail, I need to perform really well as a parent, you know, to sort of prove my worthiness of being a parent. So I think there’s a lot of pressure on intended parents to sort of feel that they have to prove that they’re worthy of the gift with them, you know, so

14:02
a successful parent. Having a well-organized baby, a baby who’s in a routine and a baby who sleeps through the night and a baby who hits all their milestones and things like that. So any new parent feels that social pressure. So people have all sorts of circumstances. People could be looking after an aging parent or a parent who’s in a car accident or whatever. But after just having a baby, God, imagine that.

14:30
wonders is surely is there some benefit to a routine, particularly I suppose if you had a routine, would that help you navigate the surrogate’s expectations and the baby’s expectations and to navigate the team? Like you’ve had this project up until now and that had structure, would a routine help? Yeah, and I can completely see the logic behind that. It’s sort of like, well, great, if we can get our baby in a routine, then that’s gonna give us predictability, around free time and time to get paperwork done and time to do all that.

15:00
I was actually talking to a very experienced midwife the other day, just about babies and surrogacy and it’s a midwife who’s been involved in surrogacy. She actually told me that for the first six weeks, no matter what you do, babies won’t fall into a routine because their melatonin system hasn’t switched on. It switches on at six weeks. You can attempt…

15:25
to put your baby in a routine for the first six weeks, but it’s not gonna work. They will naturally fall into a routine at six weeks, but you will think that it was the effort you put in for that first six weeks that caused them to fall into the routine at six weeks. But if you had have just like done nothing, you know, they would have done that anyway.

15:41
Yeah and it’s also things like baby’s stomachs are sort of they’re not big enough you know as a newborn to go you know a full night without food they need that demand feeding you know they’re growing and things like that so it’s really like so the first six weeks it’s like going you’ve really just got to respond to your baby doesn’t know the difference between night and day your baby’s just going to be a baby you know your baby’s transitioned from you know having full room service without even even needing to push a call button you know now you’re in the outside

16:11
crying and that’s how you sort of call help to you. Them crying is them calling for attention and help and support, that’s them pushing the room service button or the calling to someone. So you want to give that baby a sense of security and safety in the world. You want to be very responsive to the baby’s cries because you’re actually building their empathy circuits in those first early years. So babies are answering questions about the world of like, who and what am I?

16:41
my valuable, what am I in this world? Who and what are other people in my caregivers? Are they responsive to my needs or are they unresponsive to my needs?

16:50
know, and who and what is the world? Is the world a safe, nurturing place or is the world a harsh place where you just got to survive? So, yeah, so it’s the beginning of that process. Yeah, so the first six weeks, her advice was keep things noisy during the day and quiet at night. Your baby might sleep erratically and feed erratically during the day and the night, but it’s like you keep noise around them during the day, you keep quiet around them night so that then they go, oh, okay, it’s like there seems to be a difference here, active and bright, quiet and dark, you know, so it’s almost like day, night, day, night. So that’s the routine that you

17:20
want to give babies is like, it’s daytime, it’s bright lights and it’s active and noisy and this is nighttime, it’s quiet, it’s slower. And the baby’s like, oh okay, it seems to be like, you know, noise and activity, quiet. We’re still getting fed, you know, and changed and cared and nurtured for throughout all that. But there seems to be light and dark, light and dark, light and dark, I know. So yeah, so then they’ll start to be, you know, responding to like, ah, light, then their melatonin system switches on and it’s like,

17:50
then the melatonin allows them to settle down and sleep. So and melatonin is converted into serotonin in the morning when the light hits the back of our eyes. So serotonin is very important for depression and mood. Okay so we want to you know stabilize that neurotransmitter system because yeah the amount of melatonin that you have at night is then the amount of serotonin you have the next day. So it’s also sort of getting mental health you know the foundations of mental health as well. Yeah it’s really powerful. I’m just thinking about how the babies have been inside

18:20
the noise of her children and then navigating that post-birth. Obviously in my years in the community and the chats to different surrogates about it can be a tricky thing to balance. Although the baby’s been inside us for nine months, they’re now outside the world in the parents’ house and so when we go over for visits, you know, as you’ve talked about our head, heart, hormones, you know, our head and our heart know where baby is and cared and nurtured for, but our hormones are sort of like, hang on, where’s the baby? Oh, and then when you go for a visit, it’s like, oh, that’s the baby. And so having those cuddles can help. I know sometimes

18:50
it can be a bit tricky to navigate when as a surrogate you might like a cuddle but if the baby’s in a very set routine and they’re like no sorry you can’t cuddle the baby while they’re asleep that can be a bit challenging for teens to navigate so hopefully this discussion might help. Yeah or for the surrogate you know when could I come and visit it’s like not between this time because you know we’re going to be trying to get the baby to sleep and not between this time because we’re going to and then intended parents are sort of spending hours you know trying to get their baby to sleep you know which is you know eroding their sleep and their sanity and their sense

19:20
confidence in themselves. So then it’s sort of like it’s really important that we get our baby into a routine. Because once we’ve got that baby in routine then we could get some sanity and then we can look after everything else. But if it’s not going to be working no matter what you do, you just got to drive yourself home. Because yeah, like you said, the surrogate is coming and wanting to have a cuddle or something like that and then she’s sort of told like, no, you can’t, we’re trying to get the baby in a routine. It’s like, well, the routine is priority. All right, but where do I fit? Where’s the space for me? So it’s like, we have to sort of find

19:50
space and time for everything. It’s a hugely demanding transition process. So yeah, if you think of it from the baby’s perspective, in the third trimester, babies start listening in to what’s in their environment around them. So they’ve had the root service where they didn’t even need to push the button. The food care and nurture just sort of seemed to come from somewhere, you know, and they had the routine of the surrogate’s household that they sort of would have tuned into.

20:17
So then they’re born and they go home to the parents’ household and their routines. So the baby came out expecting to fall into the routine of the surrogate’s household. They have to fall into the routine of the parents’ household. So it’s a big transition. The babies are, it’s a big transition for them as well that they’re doing because nature has set them up. You know, like the reason probably why your second baby fell into the routine, it was, you’d actually trained them in utero, you know, to that basic structure. You know, they were already sort of in it because it was the rhythm of your household.

20:47
So, you know, when you go and stay with someone, like even a best friend, and you’re like, it’s just a bit weird because suddenly you’re in the routines of their household, you know, and it’s like going, oh, okay, right, this is how you do things. This is when you have dinner, this is when you have your showers, this is how you do your washing up. And it’s like, oh, okay, right, I’ve got to sort of, yeah, adjust to the functionality of your routine, because I’m in your house, you know, so that’s sort of what babies are going through. You know, they’re sort of going,

21:17
I was listening into, yeah, I’m in a different one, you know, so it’s sort of giving them time to catch up.

21:22
as well. And just in terms of sort of instincts and bonds and primal bonds and things like that, we really want to help that baby build that attachment bond with the infant or parent. So it’s really sort of like carry your baby around in a sling, carry your baby for six weeks, let your baby sleep on you, whatever. It’s really very much baby led to build that attachment bond. Brain is building itself. So we really want to build those neural circuits and their nonverbal neural circuit. Just really want to have a good foundation for the baby of attachment.

21:52
attachment circuits, you know, that’s when they’re built, you know, and nonverbal, preverbal, you know, emotional development stages. Just some thoughts on that is that I know a lot of what we’re talking here complements some of the work you’ve done for many years in the community. And there’s a fantastic guide out there that you’ve got about navigating the fourth trimester. It’s the guide for intended parents. It’s on websites, many pages long, and that is fantastic. And that’s what.

22:16
The aim of that is we hope for the community is that as a team, you will use that resource in the planning, like while you are pregnant, even before you get pregnant, you could talk about it and then you keep revisiting it. And so it’s about that gentle transition for, you know, the surrogate, the baby’s so used to the surrogate and her family. And I remember thinking my new thought at the moment is that, you know, traditionally at the moment, babies have two parents, you know, in a hetero sort of uplink. But then it wasn’t so abnormal. It will rewind 30 years.

22:46
were becoming a thing type of thing and then some of the other research and communities I’m aware of like there’s like polyamory communities where there might be multiple people that live in a household and there could be three people that raised him and so that just made me think that there’s a little parallel there in surrogacy that for a while there are three people, three adults possibly more, heavily involved in this child’s transition and weaning the surrogate, the baby in some ways from the surrogate to the new parents. Is there any

23:16
help teams to have that discussion so that this to help the surrogate navigate off like the the frequency of the cuddles that she might have with that baby. I guess letting people know that that’s okay. Yeah so it’s really yeah the guide that I that I made and it’s available on my website and I’m sure Sass has got it somewhere supporting your surrogate first 12 months post-birth a guide for intended parents so.

23:39
You know, and Intended Parents Month gave me feedback on that, which was that it was sort of surrogate sort of centric. And it’s like, it is, you know, because it’s the guide for supporting your surrogate emotionally. And they were like, you know, but you’re not acknowledging the intended parents needing to parent their child. And it’s like, yeah, because parenting a child, parenting a newborn, it’s like there’s community services to help you do that. Like, that’s not my job, teach you how to be a parent. You know, it’s like, I work in surrogacy.

24:09
surrogacy. It’s for the midwives and the community health nurses and the books and the people around you who support you in becoming a parent. Yeah, it’s like because there’s a lot of resources out there to do that, but there’s not a lot of resources about how to support your surrogate. So that guide is a little nice. You know, it’s not everything you need to do. It’s how to successfully support your surrogate. But you also, your lawyer will give you the guide for how to get the parentage order in.

24:39
you know, how to be a parent, you know, be that advice from older, wiser people around you or be that from podcasts or YouTube or books or whatever, midwives, you know, that will tell you how to be a parent. That’s not my job, you know, to tell you how to be a parent. It’s the same for everybody. It doesn’t matter how you became a parent. It’s like how to look after a baby. I can’t look after yours, you know. So, yeah, so that guide of mine is about how to successfully meet one responsibility, you know, which is supporting

25:09
keeping yourself sane as a parent.

25:11
looking after a baby, getting the paperwork in and everything. So that’s just one little slice because of my role here, which is supporting people in surrogacy was caught not being done and not being done well. So therefore, I needed to cover this, but now I’ve got the capacity to cover a bigger picture here. In general, parents who navigate the post-birth period the best, the most easily, they get a lot of, let’s say it’s New South Wales or Queensland

25:40
you know, they’ve got a lot of the paperwork done in the third trimester, you know, as many things that are ready to be put in or signed. So it’s not sort of, you know, suddenly going, oh my goodness, we’ve got to have we got a parentage order and then finding out how commanding it is, you know, so it’s like, you know, having as much as possible done. Yeah. And it’s looking at like, well, who’s in your support network? You’ve got friends or family who can support you or there are things that you need to outsource. Like don’t be too self-sacrificing. Don’t be too stoic.

26:10
It’s like back in the good old days, you know, when babies like, you know, the neighbourhood would, you know, draw food or provide support, you know, cleaning a house or looking after other kids and stuff like that. So it’s like, you know, accept help. What I also see a lot of intended parents doing, and I think it comes down to that moving their worthiness as a parent, you know, proving they’ve got this parent thing.

26:29
nailed is trying to pull it all off themselves, you know, trying to be sort of the super parent and to not ask for help and not need help because it’s almost like any help or asking for help would be sort of, you know, failing or being dependent or not having the…

26:44
together because you know we want to be the picture perfect parents who’ve you know they’re together but I mean basically you know anybody who’s become a parent knows that you’re just making it. Things you might see on social media just the shiny parts. Yeah and that’s the thing it’s like you know you’ve got no idea what you’re doing you’re just making it up as you go along and hoping you can pull it off. But I think it’s hard isn’t it because as you say it’s that gift of life that they’ve just been given it could be like two years two and a half

27:13
prepared and considered as opposed to people that just accidentally fall pregnant. These children are so considered and that much has been so prepared that

27:22
But the surrogates are usually parents themselves and they know what the chaos is like. And it’s sort of, you know, that permission for the IPs that it’s okay to not be okay. And to ask for help in some ways, the surrogates like seeing that because it helps them go, well, I had that too. I struggled. Yeah, it’s like, oh, thank God they’re normal. Yeah, a funny thing happens, because again, like let’s say the difference between your first and your second. You know, the second one was sort of tuning into that routine in utero. It’s almost like the more children that a surrogate has, you know, the more the baby

27:52
utero is like going, oh, I get it. You know, it’s like I’m not the center of the universe. It’s like I’ve just got to fit in. So they get more chilled out babies. And then the surrogate’s like going, oh yeah, I remember when I had my first and it was like chaos. And then, you know, it’s like, it’s actually the equivalent of like her third or fourth. It’s a baby who knows that they got to fit into a team, you know, so they’re more chilled out anyway. It could make surrogates feel like a failure when intended parents haven’t sort of nailed too easily. Yeah, because she’s

28:22
I was drowning and it was chaos and it’s like going, they seem to be holding it together so easily. It’s like going, oh my goodness, I must have been a failure. So it’s like to show the surrogate sort of waiting to see parents experience the full reality of becoming a parent, which is sort of like that entry into the, I call it like parents club. It’s like until you become a parent, the gates are sort of closed to you and then when you become a parent, then everybody tells you what it’s actually like.

28:52
I think, you know, for me, it’s like to get yourself to the starting line of surrogacy, you’re highly motivated to be a parent. Like you’ve got nothing to prove, you know, in terms of your parenting capacity, you know, just because to get yourself to the starting line of surrogacy is such a difficult journey. You’re a highly motivated parent, you know, so it’s like when you become a parent, you don’t need to meet any benchmarks, keep them alive, you know, it’s like, don’t, don’t.

29:17
up. You know, you’ve got there. You know, you’ve got there. You know, the only requirement for becoming a parent through surrogacy is being a parent to your daughter, you know, supporting your surrogate and, you know, making sure your baby knows their story. You know, the specific requirements. You know, that’s the unique things that come with becoming a parent through surrogacy. Apart from that, you’re a parent, you know, and you’re in the same parenting boat as everybody else. So, don’t make it too hard on yourself because I often think it’s like a woman gives birth to her

29:47
and the baby won’t stop crying. So why does she think the baby’s crying? Oh, maybe the baby’s hungry. I’ll try feeding the baby. Maybe the baby’s cold. Maybe the baby’s hot. Maybe the baby’s got.

29:57
Maybe the baby’s got wind. I’ll try all these things to try and make the baby stop crying. Why is the baby crying? We don’t know because the baby crying is the baby communicating this. I’ve got a discomfort. I’ve got a discomfort and that discomfort could be hunger, thirst, need my nappy changed, I’m too hot, I’m too cold, I’m uncomfortable, I need my position changed, I’m bored.

30:19
I’m feeling lonely, they’re just crying. So we have to go through a process of trial and error until we find out what worked. And so a woman who gives birth to her own baby, she comes home and she’s like, oh my God, my baby won’t stop crying. It’s like, why is my baby crying? I don’t know, I’m gonna try a whole range of things. I often think it’s like as an incandescent parent, because of sort of like self-imposed sort of stigma, you didn’t give birth to this baby and therefore the baby’s not gonna bond with you or the baby’s bonded with the surrogate or whatever, or you’re not gonna bond with the baby.

30:47
They come home from hospital and their baby won’t stop crying. I can imagine that there could be a doubt. You know, it’s like, why won’t my baby stop crying? It’s because I did surrogacy. The baby is missing the surrogate or the baby’s bonded to the surrogate. The baby’s not bonding to me. Or, you know, because I didn’t give birth to this baby, you know, I’m not gonna be a proper parent or that self-sabotage and that self-undermining. Why is their baby crying? We don’t know. Yeah, that’s the thing. That’s what everybody else is. Go through the checklist and start. Go through the checklist. Yeah, yeah.

31:17
you know, so I mean unless we sort of look at you know that maybe transitioning from you know to come home to the surrogate’s routine or coming home to a different routine, you know, they could be sort of needing help transitioning into that, so going oh you thought you were going to go to her place but you know you’re here at ours and adjust into the rhythm, gently adjust into this rhythm which is like this is what daytime’s like here and this is what night time’s like here, this is what daytime’s like here, this is what night time’s like here until that melatonin

31:47
that intended parents might feel doubt about you. So many parents are concerned. I don’t.

31:52
want the fact that this child has been born through surrogacy to have any negative impact on my child. So it’s like, oh my goodness, my baby won’t stop crying and I don’t know how to stop my baby crying. It’s because the baby was born through surrogacy that they’re crying and I don’t know how to be a proper parent. So I made a mistake. I’ve damaged this baby. Whereas it’s not that at all. Why is the baby crying? Dunno. I remember the two dads that I carried for Brendan, the one that was

32:22
nervous that the baby wouldn’t bond with him but then is it the amygdala? I think that is that sort of alert part of your brain that is chewed into your baby’s signals and wakes up when it cries. Turns out that can grow and increase even if you haven’t birthed a child. Yes. Yes you can bond with a child hence why fostering and adoption and all these other forms of parenting work or if a parent dies. Having a cat, having a dog.

32:46
having pets or something like that, like you know we bond with them, we’re cued into them, you know it’s like they’re a different species and we’re good with them. Yeah.

32:53
And so the same can happen for a bird. That’s a mammalian system. It’s like you see on YouTube where dogs adopt things and they don’t, I mean, they’re not even mammals. You know, it’s like tigers adopt things like our operating system. No. Intended parents, their bond with the idea of a child is what brings them into surrogacy. So they, before the surrogacy even starts, they are bonded with a concept of a child who doesn’t even exist.

33:23
embryo in a freezer because they can imagine future child. So they’re already bonded with the child because they can imagine the child. So they actually come into surrogacy already bonded with the child. The force of love and the journey of love brings them into surrogacy and gives them the strength.

33:41
to endure all the challenges and the losses and the demands that come with surrogacy. So it’s like they’re bonded with something that doesn’t exist at that point in time. They don’t need to worry. People giving birth to their own children have concerns about whether they get a bond with them. It’s like unless there’s a significant history of trauma where your parents didn’t bond to you and it is sexual generational trauma, it’s something that needs to be addressed. Anxiety about knowing it’s really important to bond with a child.

34:11
that to happen, that’s actually evidence of bonding taking place. I know that this is important so therefore it’s a priority for me to make it happen. You know, I’m anxious that it might not happen because I understand the consequences if it doesn’t happen. So yeah, so anxiety about bonding is actually evidence of bonding. Interesting, yeah.

34:27
So I think sort of to summarize some of the key things I’m hearing for you is that for intended parents to call on your network, your village to ask for help, let them know you’re going to need help plan ahead of time for even things like you said about walking the dogs, you know that one and the yard. Yeah that’s the thing, yeah like unless you’re the only person who can do it, it can be outsourced. Yeah absolutely or even…

34:51
If the dogs need to go on a doggy holiday to somebody else’s house for a week or two to give you a break, or if you’re into state visiting your surrogate, then that stuff needs to happen anyway. As much of the paperwork as possible to prepare ahead of time and book in appointments so that all of that stuff that needs to get done during business hours, you’ve got done ahead of time. Yeah. Like spending eight hours on the phone to send to Lincoln’s and stuff like that. You know, like 12 hours on the phone to Medicare. You’ve got to need time for that.

35:17
chatting to people in the community too about what prep you might need to do. And then also in terms of the routine, they’re just that confirmation that you know, we’ve heard it from midwives that for the first six weeks, babies, basically the only routine you need is daytime and nighttime. And so to have chaos and you know, noises during the day time. So have your visitors and therefore the surrogate could be over having cuddles, or her family could be visiting or your friends and family and those sorts of things. And that there’s time for the routine down the track. But I guess those first

35:47
six weeks post-birth, what is part of those first, that three months for the surrogate post-birth and navigating their needs as well. Well then, yes. Well then by six weeks the baby will be in a routine. So therefore you’ll have the predictability that you’re seeking, you know, about knowing, you know, I generally got time to do this and time to do that. So.

36:03
So the parentage audit, you know, like it doesn’t need to be submitted on day 29. Allow time for, give yourself breathing space, like take a breath, you know, to not put too much pressure to like, you know, we’ve got to get this baby in a routine, you know, parentage audit done, you know, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, you know, like tasks on a, on a to-do list, you know, and supporting your surrogate. And like I said, you know, that guide that I wrote, it’s just a slice, like it’s, it’s just one piece of package.

36:27
But if you actually look at what that guide says is that sort of the minimum to do, it’s about 10 to 15 minutes a day. You can actually achieve foundations of that, you know, 10 to 15 minutes a day. So.

36:40
which is actually not a huge ask once it gets past the first couple of weeks and things like that, where everybody’s transitioning. So yes, as Katrina mentioned, that guide is available on her website, or if you’re members of SASS, that’s available in our portal. Check that out and talk through that as a team. I hope that this webinar, this recording…

37:00
can become useful for teams. I would like to think that some would listen to it in the lead up to birth and to just discuss what that could look like and how to support each other. And so for surrogates to understand what that time post-birth is like for the intended parents as well and all the things that they have to navigate. And then also for the intended parents to, well, I’m sure so many of them come into understanding what needs to be navigated but just to give themselves a bit of permission to breathe a little bit more.

37:26
and that there’ll be time for those routines down the track and that it’s okay to ask for help. And it’s really, yeah, you’re still a team. You know, it was like a group of people, a team of people who brought this child into the world. So you’re still a team. So it’s still really navigating the post-birth journey as a team, you know, but now the intended parents no longer have the capacity to be, you know, the full support system for their surrogates. So now, you know, for the intended parents to fulfill their support obligations for their surrogate, as well as pull off the paperwork.

37:55
Unless they had abundant free time before this all started, fewer physics, you know, you know, they’re going to need support because it’s a bigger role than just becoming a parent. And again, I remember becoming a parent for the first time and it’s like, it was enough for my capacity to just do that, you know, let alone have to, you know, support what required for surrogate and pull off a parenting disorder. So it’s like, I couldn’t have done it unless I had, you know, more support than I had around me to do.

38:24
to give me the free time and space to meet those other responsibilities and obligations there. Absolutely. Is there any final bits of advice that you’d like to add Katrina or if we’ve covered it all? I really think like one of the things with the intended parent role, I always say it’s like the intended parent got…

38:40
role done well is invisible. It’s a bit like going to a restaurant and the concierge or the maitre d or something like that. They make it look graceful and easy. So it’s almost like the better you do it, the more invisible it’s going to be. So it’s actually not really understood how challenging and demanding the intended parent role is. So it’s really that sort of acknowledgement that it’s like I see the demand on intended parents and I know that the better you do it, the less anybody’s

39:10
know how hard it was. Yeah it can be a thankless job in some ways and it’s a hard gig. Yeah, yeah it is a hard gig. Thank you for joining me. If you’d like to see other recordings with photos head over to our YouTube channel to watch other webinars. You can head to surr for more information about surrogacy. Also check out our Zoom monthly catch-up sessions which are a great way to connect with others in the surrogacy community. Attending a Zoom is scary the first time

39:40
We have all been beginners at some stage. As we say, it takes a village to raise a child, and in the case of surrogacy, it takes a village to make a child. So welcome to the village.

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Looking for support one-on-one? Register for ⁠SASS⁠ to connect with me – your Siri for Surrogacy, or book in for a private consultation ⁠sass@surrogacyaustralia.org