Episode 75 – Matt – gay dad

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Thanks for watching!

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Welcome back, or if this is your first time, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series with me, your host Anna McKie. My guest on this episode was a co-host on the regular webinar series that I run. Those one-hour webinars are free and will take you through the surrogacy process in Australia. You will hear from a surrogate or parent and there are opportunities to type in your questions and we will try to answer them. You can find upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org

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This episode is one from the archives and was recorded in January 2023 featuring Matt. Matt from Adelaide and his husband Aldo met their surrogate Rachel from Melbourne in October 2020. Following their first embryo transfer in January 2022, they welcomed their son Ari in September of that year. You can hear from his surrogate Rachel in episode 48. Matt mentions a few resources in this episode, so I’ll put links for those in the show notes. They include

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a large national Facebook group called ASC, Australian Surrogacy Community, EDA, Egg Donation Australia, also a Facebook group and a forum with the same name, and the 100 discussion questions. If you’re in ASC, you can find those in the files tab or by searching. And if you’re a member of SAS, they can be found in our SASS portal, which is our intranet. Matt and I actually went to primary school together for a few years, and it was surrogacy that reconnected us.

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So it was fairly special for me to record this and to see Matt and Aldo being dads. I hope you enjoy this episode. So Matt, here we are to hear about your story. And we’ve got the photos here that you shared with me for social media. So we’ve got some photos here. I’ll get you to tell me about these photos. And then how did it start? How did you find Rachel? And how did you come to surrogacy? Sure.

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So the photo on the left, so Rachel is based in Melbourne, Aldo and I are based in Adelaide. That photo was taken from Rachel’s first trip to Adelaide. And it was actually at that restaurant there where Rachel got to meet my mum and Aldo’s mum for the very first time. So it was really important for her. As you also met other members of our family as well, but that was sort of probably the big unveiling, should we say, of this is what we’re thinking of doing. Rachel hadn’t made her offer to be our surrogate yet.

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was probably a bit of a fact-finding mission for her as well and thankfully that went really, really well. And in the photo on the right, we were all dressed just a little bit crazy, was Rachel’s 30th in Melbourne and basically that was an opportunity for us to meet Rachel’s partner, her parents and her community as well. And those visits happened within a few months of each other and Rachel had already made the offer to be our surrogate at her birthday party and yeah,

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there. Is it really powerful for you to meet her friends and family who were going to support her on the journey and for her to see, like I guess I said too, the grandparents and the village that she’s carrying a baby for to see oh who are the other people in their life. It’s a bit of a reference character check in some ways isn’t it? Definitely and you mentioned earlier about the fact that Rachel decided to birth here in Adelaide and not in her hometown of Melbourne and one of the reasons was that she wanted to see like oh my mother and Aldo’s parents becoming grandparents

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brothers and sisters becoming you know uncles and aunties and so that was really important for her. It’s just kind of crazy to look back on these photos and these photos were you know two and a bit years ago now. No all three years ago in some cases. It’s just a crazy kind of thing to think here we are now with a little person. Yes a little person and so did you meet Rachel through the ASC Australian Surrogacy Community Facebook group? Is that right? Yeah we did so Aldo and I joined ASC in about June of 2020 June July and then we met Rachel in

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the October and she made her offer to us in the following January. Wonderful, so it can be done. It can be done, definitely. So what other photos have we got here? We’ve got, this was part of the journey, what was happening here? This was the day that we signed off on our surrogacy agreement, so Rachel had signed her part and we had just signed ours and that was obviously a huge, huge part to get to that point. So yeah, very happy faces there and sort of really excited about

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steps were. Makes it very real doesn’t it? Yeah definitely. And then it looks like your team has a lot of fun here so what’s going on in these photos Matt? Yeah look we’re probably, look we’re all very quirky and we all get along very very well. Obviously when Rachel came to Adelaide in January 2022 for our embryo transfer we had you know daily visits to Reprimand and basically this was the day where Rachel got her trigger shot to prepare for the embryo transfer so yeah we just

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silly and I think really those photos were like okay well here goes the trigger shot and M goal is the photo on the right let’s hope that this that this embryo transfer works. Send it in. That’s it. That’s good good to have a laugh and look back on this whole journey with joy. I think it’s really important to have a laugh because it’s obviously what you’re doing is so huge it’s been really great for us because we have said to Rachel and her partner Taryn a number of times that they are genuinely people that we would be friends with if we took

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surrogacy out of the equation and so that’s really helped and we have a laugh and we have the big DNMs and we do all of it so it’s a genuine friendship and I think by not having these alighter moments you can probably get a bit caught up in it all and you know because it is a huge thing so that like that comic relief and sort of lighten things up a bit. Excellent and I think that’s great advice for people listening to going if you had you know gone on this journey and had these embryo transfers and never got pregnant and then the

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or both, you still really want to be, are they people that you’d want to hang out with if surrogacy was removed? Yeah, definitely. And for us, you know, my husband and I, neither of us are biologically able to carry a child. So you know, we always hope that things would go well following the embryo transfer and it has and it’s really important for us that our son knows how he came to be. And so we want that, you know, ongoing relationship with Rachel and her partner. And so Ari knows how he came to be.

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you know, we had some fun along the way. Yes. And you know, he knows what his story is. Wonderful. And just for the listeners too, you had a known egg donor. Were they known to you beforehand or they were initially a stranger? They were initially a stranger. So we met our egg donor, Emily, through the Egg Donation Australia Forum. And she just randomly one day, you know, it’s what all intended parents who, you know, are looking for an egg donor and a surrogate hope for that one day you’ll get a message from someone that says, Hey, you know, I’d be interested to be your egg donor or your surrogate. Let’s chat.

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some more and so Emily literally came out of the blue and we say that Ari’s a very Australian baby, an eek donor based in Brisbane, a surrogate based in Melbourne and we’re in Adelaide. So yeah, so we were we were very lucky to meet Emily and she and her wife and their little boy have been so supportive of us. We’re very, very lucky. Wonderful. Oh, it’s a pride family here. Oh, definitely. Oh yes, yes. It’s, and we say all the time it’s an all queer team.

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We’ve just been so lucky that both Emily and Rachel have, you know, wanted to do their part to help make our dream come true. So I heard a joke told by other queer families who have two dads and egg donor and surrogate gay too, that, you know, Ari, when he grows up, he’s like gonna sit down with you guys, dads, I’ve got something to tell you, I’m straight. Yeah.

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Sorry. Definitely. How are we going to deal with that? No. Yeah, but it is, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re just, you know, grateful. What I was going to say is grateful is an understatement. It is, you know, sometimes we sort of sit there and today little Ari sitting up in his little Wiggles couch and we’re like, how, I was looking at him and going, how did you get here? It’s, you know, it’s crazy, but it’s a huge thing, but there are amazing people out there who will- You still have those pinch yourself moments going, this happened for us. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. We’ll move on to the next photo, but I reckon that’s something that we could,

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questions about, you know, when you mentioned about getting those messages and like what that feels like in that waiting game, but we’ll go through the photos first. So then are these some pregnancy announcements photos here? They are, they are. So this was us in Melbourne at Rachel’s place. We found a t-shirt that said Papa, cause I’m Papa for Ari. Aldo is all kinds of fabulous. So I couldn’t just get a t-shirt that said dad or daddy on there. It had to be daddicorn. So that was really cool. And from the very beginning of us speaking to Rachel.

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Her wish was that she would be an ongoing presence in any child that she was going to carry. And she wanted to be cool Auntie Rach. So we’ve got our branded t-shirts there. And yeah, that was a really exciting day. Good. And you can tell by the size of the smiles on your faces too. Very exciting. And then obviously you’re pregnant and that gets us to birth. So tell us about the birth in this photo here. Oh, look.

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The birthing story probably itself would take up a whole hour of everyone’s time. So I’ll try and try and run through it very quickly. But Rach basically relocated to Adelaide for a period of almost two months. Um, so she arrived three weeks before Ari was born. Although Ari was due on October the 11th, but he decided to come very early on September the 24th. Rachel is an absolute warrior queen. Her from her water breaking to him being born.

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it was 29 hours. Yeah and it was her first pregnancy, first time giving birth obviously. You know we did the mad dash to the women’s and children’s, they confirmed yes you are in labour but it could be some time still so you can either stay here or you can go home. Anyway long story short it’s we ended up going to bakeries, we ended up getting ice cream, there was a

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It was a whole thing. And it was about 10.40 on the Friday night that we went, yep, okay, things are starting to happen now. It’s time to go in. We were in the women’s assessments clinic for about an hour and a half. And then we were moved to a birthing suite. And you know, that was about one o’clock in the morning. So we’re still talking like another 10, 11 hours before Ari was actually born. And- It’s like you were quite hands-on in the labor too. Yeah. Rachel’s partner, Taryn was in the room and literally glued to Rachel’s side. This is probably one of the very few photos

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Taryn doesn’t make an appearance in but we were we were in the room with her the entire time and there were just moments where you know Rachel was like I said an absolute warrior but

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We were there and we always wanted to be there. We wanted to be in the room. And we’re so glad that we were able to be there and just support her in whatever way we could. So Rachel did part of her laboring in the bath and then obviously the rest of the time, sort of poor thing, walking around the room and just waiting for it to be over. And then, and then it was, and he was born.

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And when you look at this photo, what do you think? What do you feel? Oh, like I get goosebumps. I’m not going to lie. I get goosebumps because it was like, even for Rachel, like the minute he was born, her face went from complete agony and oh my god, I need this to be over and done with to just sheer elation and going, we did it, you know. And you mentioned in your presentation, you know, discussions around what happens at birth and

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really important for Rachel that she had first hold and she gave Ari to us and so this was basically at that moment where we really got to see his face properly for the first time and then shortly after that Rach handed him over to me for skin-to-skin time and then Aldo had skin-to-skin time and yeah we were just all on cloud nine. Very special what a day, how you changed all of your lives. Very much so. Yes and then I think just a couple of photos to finish up so

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goes on and you get to take your little boy with you to events and things now? This is a wedding in Sydney. So he took his first interstate trip at six weeks of age or eight weeks of age. So this was at two of our very dear friends, their wedding in Sydney. Just one of those things where, you know, you all of a sudden you’re traveling on a plane with an infant and all of a sudden you need eight billion more things than you ever did before. Can’t just take your stuff for the wedding. That’s right.

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Exactly. So yeah, so, and that was really important because the two friends that got married, one of them has been Aldo’s friend for over 20 odd years now. And so it was really fantastic that Ari was able to be there.

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Good. And then these photos here of you, this is you being dad. You’ve got the sun in your arms, hey? Oh, I know, I know. The photo on the left, I think, is just a day at home of him and I while Aldo’s been at work. And then the photo on the right, before Rachel went back to Melbourne, she had some of her friends from Melbourne come over to Adelaide. And we basically did a day in the Barossa. So hanging out, being papa and having these moments with him are just amazing. Beautiful. And I can’t help but mention our personal connection.

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time to

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do that. Matt and I went to primary school together for a couple of years in one of our primary schools for years five, six and seven, I think. And so we knew each other when we were sort of like 10, 11, 12. So for me to see you with your child in your arms, Matt growing up being dad, it’s a pretty cool feeling. Like I’m so happy for you guys and so proud that you guys have navigated surrogacy so well in Australia. You do it credit that what your team has done. So well done to your whole team. Thank you very much. Yes. It’s amazing how people come and go from your life.

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so leaving primary school to then all of a sudden it being your team with Matt and Brendan that was the catalyst for us to start looking at altruistic surrogacy here in Australia because basically we started looking into commercial surrogacy in 2013 and ultimately decided that that wasn’t the path that we wanted to go down.

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some sort of six, seven years later, scrolling through Instagram, coming across, you know, the boys page and seeing your photo and then you reaching out to me and it, yeah, it’s just, yeah, kind of crazy how things happen. It is. And I think, so as you said, my team was quite visible on social media and so was yours. And we were talking about this before we started the webinar, but I think that’s each of our hope that by having these conversations and the people that are here tonight listening, they’re hearing about surrogacy and two stories that have happened and then they might go on and tell other people and it brings hope.

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that this is how we are going to change the world slowly through these conversations. Oh look it’s all just education and I think I said to you earlier like putting a face to the stories as well to go that it does happen, it does work. You know one thing that Aldo and I have said many times is that basically from Rachel offering to be our surrogate to Ari being born was like a year and nine months.

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And that is incredibly quick. For a couple who didn’t have an egg donor and didn’t have a surrogate, you know, it was quite a quick turnaround, shall we say, when there are people out there who have been on this journey for many, many years. So you just don’t know how it’s gonna go. You just, yeah, put yourself out there and hope that things will work out. Yeah, and as you said there, to get all of that done in that time. And so then when I was going through the presentation explaining all of the steps, you’re like,

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wow we got through all of that. It’s lots of steps involved isn’t it? Lots of steps involved and you know some some parts it does feel like a bit like you’re following the bouncing ball. Yeah. Then there are things that come at you because you know you are dealing with people. Yes there is a process involved but you’re dealing with people and there can be challenges and things like that but if your team has a really strong foundation you know you can navigate your way through it so we’ve been so lucky with our team. Yeah and I challenge you I wouldn’t say luck I put it down to your team

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at the friendship. You valued the time to get to know each other and even when the offer came, you’re still spending time together. You’re not just spending time together but with each other’s friends and family. You’re talking about it. You maintained a lot of contact during pregnancy despite interstate. So I’m not putting that down to life. I’m putting that down to well-intentioned people on both sides of the team there. Oh, most definitely. Most definitely. You know, there were none of us went into this lightly. And even after Rachel had made the offer,

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to us and she completed the questionnaire and we completed it and then we sent it to each other at the same time and it was things as light as you know what

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kind of traits you hope your child will have to things like, but what if there is there issues during the pregnancy? And, you know, big questions like, what happens if we have to terminate? You know, so you sort of, you have to do the light and the dark and everything in between, because you really need to know where everyone’s going to stand. And by having those awkward conversations and hard conversations, when you get to tricky points, which thankfully none of us were, apart from Rachel getting HG, unfortunately, but you know, at least you kind of know

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in each situation and how people are potentially going to react and handle things. And I think that’s good advice too and I would mention that to people listening. Even if you do find a surrogate that you already know, I would advise people pausing and

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doing all of these discussion questions, because you might think you know how a person’s gonna react or what things they want for their child in the future, but you still need to talk about this stuff. I think that’s important. Matt, I might ask you this question. So what advice would you give to IPs to manage any feelings of disheartenment during the marathon? Yeah, look, there are definitely those really positive moments, but there are also those moments of, look, I’ll give an example that just popped into my head was, you know, we’d met Rachel, she made the offer,

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on you know cloud nine and then all of a sudden we looked at each other and went yeah well that’s great but we don’t have an egg donor and so you sort of feel like it’s it’s just there in your grasp and then next thing it’s like oh but hold on there’s this whole other very important piece that needs to happen as well my husband and I we just relied on each other as each other’s support as much as we were doing this as a couple we were doing this as individuals as well

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Give yourself like a day to sit in those feelings and just acknowledge them and go, okay, why am I feeling the way that I am? But if it’s disheartening about not finding an egg donor or not finding a surrogate, just keep putting yourself out there. And it’s what you said earlier, Anna, commenting on other people’s posts and making connections, obviously not asking anyone to be a surrogate or asking anyone to be an egg donor. But if there are people out there that you are out there and sort of saying,

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an egg donor or being a surrogate and you feel like there’s a genuine connection there or like try and build those relationships. I think yes, so much is left to meeting people who feel the same way about you like in any kind of friendship or relationship, but really just keep working towards your goal, but also bring people into your journey. So whether it’s your family or it’s your friends to be there as a support for you, you know, at the very beginning stages, Aldo and I did it very, apart from like our parents and immediate

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We didn’t.

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talk more broadly with others, but having the support of our families was so important and those very close friends. Let people in if you feel comfortable letting some people in, let them because they’re going to be the best support for you even though they may not really understand what you’re going through. We all understand those feelings of disappointment or feeling disheartened by… This journey that’s unpredictable and those people might not offer to be your surrogate or egg donor but we say you need an army of supporters so the more often you

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journey that you’re going to be on, you’re developing supporters and you also hope they might tell somebody else too. You know, we’ve heard of people who mentioned to their hairdresser that you know, I’ve heard of someone doing surrogacy and somebody else at the hairdresser says, I’ve always thought about being a surrogate. So I think it’s spreading the word, but it, and it can be hard to keep your energy up when you see other people matching with surrogates and egg donors before you because it feels like isn’t there a queuing system? You know, I got my ticket first. It doesn’t work that way though, doesn’t it? It can be hard to keep your

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up you’ve probably although it happened for you in a relatively short time you’ve probably watched other people that are still in the community in this time that have not matched and had a baby in the time that you have must it’s deflating isn’t it? It is deflating and you know you want everyone to see to to achieve what they’re trying to achieve it is hard but yeah i think it really is about just making sure you have a good support network around you but ride the wave like you have to ride the wave because there will be really good moments and then there could be periods of

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just keep putting yourself out there and as you said before like go to the catch-ups do that because what we found was ASC the people in that group are very open and very welcoming and we’ve made connections with different people and That’s that’s just made it so much easier for us. You don’t feel quite so alone, which is which is great. So

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It’s important to talk to others and even if you know you’ve got a friend like me who’s been a surrogate for somebody else I wasn’t going to be your surrogate, but you’ve got other people that you can talk to so yeah as you say Make connections with other people

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not just the people that are going to be your surrogate, you know, because you never know, people talk to each other and can help. And yeah, as you said, be active. And I’ll mention again, yeah, monthly zoom catch-ups that happen through Surrogacy Australia. That’s a good thing to come and be seen at from the comfort of your own home before you attend an in-person one. Matt, that questionnaire that you mentioned, somebody’s asked a question here, how do you get them? Where did you find all of those questions? Well, I believe, and I hope I’m correct, but it was

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did it with her IPs, who passed it on to our surrogate, Rachel. So if people are looking for, I don’t know, Anna, maybe I’ll do some digging and see if I can find it and maybe I’ll send it through to you and you might be able to share it through your channels. But I guess I’ve got a couple. So in SAS, we’ve got them in the portal. But if you’re in the Facebook groups, if you’re in ASC, I’m pretty sure it’s in the files tab. Often, if you’re on a computer, it’s much easier to access those things. There’s often tabs that nobody looks at in groups.

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Michelle spelled M-A-C-H-E-L-L-E. She put together the 100 questions, which some people can, they’re done in little boxes that you can sort of cut it up and you might do it over dinner and you pull one out of a hat and ask them. But I know of others that have done spreadsheets and things too. So here’s the tricky thing, yeah, if you’re not in those Facebook groups though, some of those things are harder to access. But if you can find a way of contacting myself or Matt, I’m sure we could get it to you. Yeah, definitely. Yes. But while we’re here, Matt, is there anything that if you could go back and do anything differently in your journey? Is there anything that you would change?

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little bit.

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or things that you wish you’d known? Probably, there’s nothing that I would change. I would probably say to IPs in those first few weeks post birth, you will find yourself obviously, your newborn child is going to be such a huge priority and your life is going to change in a way that as much, it’s like everything and nothing you expect at all at once. But what I will say, cause the next very important thing is you’re obviously very concerned about your surrogate and you want to make sure that they are okay.

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and you’re being a support for them, just make sure that you’re, as a new parent, that you’re also taking time out for you. So, you know, my husband and I, we basically, we said we had our little bubble with Rachel and her partner for the first five to six days post-birth, obviously following the Katrina Hale fourth trimester step. But what we also did was after a few days, you know, we had this revolving door of visitors, which was lovely. But what we found was we weren’t taking any time to rest.

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and we weren’t sort of checking in with each other because you’re constantly looking after a baby and looking after, I say looking after your surrogate, more supporting your surrogate and making sure that they’re okay. You need to have some downtime, otherwise you will burn out very, very quickly. And I think that’s something I, neither my husband or I actually really thought about. And so we sort of got to about two weeks in and just went, I remember we were walking, I think we were in Maya and we were walking around and I just went, I can’t function. Like this is just.

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the like, yeah, and we had a wedding to go to that night with a two week old. So it was like.

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I just, yeah, I can’t function. So when you get to the point of newborn with your surrogate in the little bubble, just make sure you’re taking time out to rest because it’s, you’re no good to anyone if you’re not looking after yourself. Can I ask, I don’t know if this is a challenging question or not, but if, would you have less visitors if you had your time again then, or would you pace them out and just make them wait longer? Probably pace it out. Oh, look, obviously, you know, and the thing for Rachel was that she wanted to see my mom and Aldo’s parents

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grandparents and all of that. So it’s not it’s not about not having them it was just and it’s not actually about the family at all because everyone from the family was so supportive and helped and all that kind of stuff. It was more so just we packed a lot of people in and then they were weddings and there were other things that it was all just a bit a bit much so I think

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pacing it out and what Aldo and I call our nil interest days, which is basically just having a day where we’re not doing anything today. If we don’t get out of our pajamas, that’s fine. Just pacing it out a bit more because it’s a lot. I don’t need to tell you, Anna, it’s a lot. Sure, yeah, but no, that is good advice because these babies are so wanted and we’re so focused on them coming. And then it’s just this world of.

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whirlwind and you’ve got a surrogate that is that you’ve signed up for that and so you’ve got to care for her as well but you’re becoming new parents which is hard so yeah and sleep deprivation which is you know a form of torture.

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So it’s hard work. I really like what you said there about as a couple, not just in that post birth time, but you mentioned that all through the journey, keep talking together. Has that something that you would notice? Has something you’ve learned about yourself or as a couple during this journey? You know what, I think we’ve always, always been really good at checking in with each other. I think the moments where we don’t is purely because there is so much on that it’s like, I’ve got to get to this thing and that thing. I think it’s a bit harder sometimes now to check

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who’s you know sort of ruling the roost but we always have but that would be my thing is just that checking like how are you today you know Aldo got this thing from somewhere it was like you know I’ve only got 50% today so then the other partner’s like well I’ll bring the 150% you know it’s that it’s just yeah just keeping that those lines of communication open and just being really honest about where you’re at.

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I think that’s great advice because surrogacy is, well altruistic surrogacy is all about relationships and then you’re not just doing it with two people, it’s often three and four and you’re making a baby and relationships can be challenging as we all know in our friendships and family and so you’ve got to be, you know, great communication skills for everyone in the team there, don’t you? So yeah, definitely good advice. At the beginning of your journey, it probably seems quite overwhelming and it probably seems like there might probably are moments where you know the question before was you know

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disheartened about the whole process is if it’s something that you want to do, stick with it. It’s a huge commitment. It really, really is, especially if you’re looking for an egg donut and a surrogate because you’re managing relationships on these forums and it’s almost like a full-time job in itself. Aldo and I often said that we’d go to work during the day and we’d come home at night and we’d be commenting and doing all these things and it felt like you’re part of a secret society.

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lot of hard work but my wish is that everyone who is an intended parent and a surrogate and an egg donor they all meet their people. Yeah it’s not for the faint-hearted but it’s quite a ride but at the same time you know we are now parents to someone who we think is pretty cool so it’s paid off. Really like I said before bring people in to what you’re doing you know those that will be there for you make contacts with people who are also going through the journey as well so you’ve got that support from people who know what

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you’re going through. My husband and I, we have an Instagram page called Yeah the Dads. We’re not that cool but you know we thought it was a bit funny. But you know reach out if we can provide any support. A bit like when I reached out to you Anna and to Matt and Brendan and there were things of like, oh you might want to read this so you might want to look at that you know. Or if it is just, oh I feel like it’s never going to happen. We all have those moments. We are so blessed that it happened for us but…

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just make sure you’ve got a support network and just keep at it because it’s worth it. I think that’s well summarized there. I think, yeah, and what you’ve said is that investment of time in those early days, it does feel like a second part-time job being active. And I think that that time investment is actually good practice for when you do have a surrogate and you’re already used to investing this much time into the surrogacy concept of your life there. And it sounds like, as you said, you reached out to people who had done it before you. And it sounds like your team,

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Katrina Hale documents too, took the wisdom of the teams that have gone before you and use that to guide you. Oh God, yeah, definitely. That really, and that’s really where the ASC for our team in particular was so helpful because all of a sudden, you know, you are hearing names like Katrina Hale and you’re like, oh, hold on, let me look at this. Yeah, taking that wisdom. And it’s what I said to you, I think before it started, you know, it’s all about education. It’s all about putting a face to a journey that has, you know, gone in this particular

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where we’ve got our little person, but it is, you know, if we can shed some light on what our process was and how we navigated certain things, that might make it that little bit easier for the next team who are going through it. And so if we can help in any way, that’s what it is. Cause ultimately, like we said earlier, surrogacy is a beautiful way to bring a human into the world. And yeah, if we can educate people, why not? Thank you so much for joining me.

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