Episode 70 – Children of surrogates

00:14
the Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series. I’m your host Anna McKie. Thank you for sharing your time to listen to this episode. These recordings are from the regular one hour free webinars that I run, which I invite you to attend if you haven’t already. They take you through how surrogacy works in Australia, including how to find a surrogate or intended parents. There are opportunities to ask questions and you hear from a co-host each time about their own journey.

00:40
This episode, recorded in September 2024, is slightly different to our standard webinar series, as it involved three sets of co-hosts, Clarity, Cooper and Eleanor, who are old children of surrogates. Let me tell you a little bit about each of them. 15-year-old Clarity, her mum, Dani, birthed as a surrogate in Adelaide in February 2021 for a couple who were initially strangers. She had a little girl, Evie, for Sarah and Ben.

01:06
Dani was initially a gestational surrogate for the couple, but they moved to traditional surrogacy, meaning Dani is also the egg donor. Dani is planning a second surrogacy with a new couple, also from Adelaide. 14-year-old Cooper, Cooper’s mum Gemma from North Queensland, birthed as a surrogate in Brisbane in March 2023 for a couple who were also initially strangers. Despite Gemma’s waters breaking 10 weeks early and an emergency C-section, she had a little boy Rupert for two dads, James and Jim Bob.

01:34
Gemma has been an egg donor since Cooper was four, with nine babies born across Australia. 15-year-old Eleanor, Eleanor’s mum Allison is a single mum living in Coffs Harbour, who birthed her third surrogate baby in September 2022. Charlie, whose second birthday it was on the day we recorded, and his two dads also live locally and the families knew each other socially before starting their journey.

01:57
Allison has previously birthed two boys as a gestational surrogate for other families in Queensland in 2013 and 2014, as well as helping five families through egg donation. Each of the surrogates connected to this episode have also joined me on a webinar. You can hear Danny on episode 24, Gemma on episode 11, and Allison on episode four. This webinar recording can also be watched on our YouTube channel. I’ll also mention that some of the moms were sitting next to their children during the recording and you can hear some of their inputs too.

02:27
The questions we discuss in this episode you can find in the show notes. My secret dream when I coordinate these guests is so that this recording could be of use to future surrogates and their children. So when a potential surrogate brings up the idea of wanting to be a surrogate and her family have some initial concerns, they could listen to this episode together, discuss any parallels, and hopefully ease some of the fears that are common at the beginning of a surrogacy journey. If this episode is helpful to you,

02:53
please send me a message and let me know. I hope you enjoy this episode.

02:57
So I’ve explained who the IPs were for each of them. Now I know Eleanor’s one has been it three times, but we’re gonna mainly talk about the most recent journey, but she’ll add her bits in as necessary. Cooper, you’re at the top corner of my screen, so you can go first. How did you get to know the IPs, those intended parents that your mom carried for? I met James and Jimbob really through with them coming to visit really, and us going to go see them. This was all, I’m pretty sure,

03:27
mom actually met them at a surrogacy meetup conference yeah and all this went off from there mum introduced us to them and yeah. And fun fact you have been since spoken at what that surrogacy conference a couple of years later sharing your story is that right? Yeah. Wonderful. Okay Eleanor do you remember the time of getting to know those IPs? Yeah we did know them beforehand just…

03:50
One of the dads, Sammy, he hosts a cosplay convention in Coffs and we’ve been to that a few times. So we knew him previously but they’re both really lovely and it was very nice getting to know them. But I think it was just that mum got contact with them through a Facebook group and figured it out from there. Cool. And Clarity for you, do you remember spending that time getting to know Ben and Sarah? Yeah, so we met Ben and Sarah at the Royal Adelaide show and then it turned into like little catch-ups and meeting their families and…

04:19
just getting to know each other a lot more. And in Adelaide, it’s showtime at the moment. So how many years ago was that? Oh, I think seven or eight maybe. We went to the show last year with them and it was, we did like a before surrogacy and after surrogacy photo with Evie. So it was really cute. That’s cool. So they’ve been a part of each of your lives for quite some time. Yeah, majority of our lives I think they’ve been a part of. Yeah, since you’ve sort of had memories, I guess. Yeah. Well, Clarity, I’ll stick with you then. What were your first thoughts when your mum brought up the idea

04:49
and were you worried and why worried if at all? Yes, I wasn’t really worried and my mum had been an egg donor before surrogacy. So we sort of understood how it works, but I wasn’t worried at the time. Okay, that’s good. What about the others? Eleanor, you, do you remember your first thoughts? Mind you, her first journey, you were so little. Yeah, the first surrogacy, I was three. So it’s always just been, mum has babies for other people every once in a while.

05:16
It’s kind of true, that’s what you’ve all got in common, isn’t it? Yeah. And then being a bit older with the last one, did you have any concerns? I guess now understanding bodies and how it all works a bit more? Only because I knew that my mum was older and I knew that there were risks with that, so I was a bit like, oh is this safe? Yeah. But she was happy to do it as like a last hurrah, so that’s what you said.

05:41
So those concerns that you might have had about putting your body on the line type of thing, how did you get past those worries? Was it having chats with mum or talking to midwives or anything like that? Mum is a midwife which helps.

05:54
but she did good on making sure that I knew that there weren’t really huge risks. And also it’s her body. I don’t think I could have stopped her. And I suppose as you guys each get older and have conversations in about your bodies and how people could use their bodies in different ways, it’s an interesting conversation to be having. And then what about you Cooper? Do you remember when mum brought it up for the first time and any concerns? No concerns really. Didn’t come as much of a surprise honestly,

06:24
So yeah. And elaborate on that. Is that because she’s done egg donations? Because of all the egg donations. And so like before mum had brought it up, I knew not much about it. Yeah, I just went along with it. Essentially just the same with Clarity, honestly. My kids who are eight and 10, mind you, at the time they were probably two and four and I’ve done egg donation. We told them, you need an egg and a seed to make a baby. And that’s how I introduced the egg donation idea. And then it was, and you need a girl’s tummy to grow it

06:54
So yeah, I’m wondering if you had any, any of the three of you had any language like that to simplify it? No, not really. I’ve always been taught that gay couples exist and that’s okay. And yeah, sometimes if they want babies, they need a lady to grow it. Yep. And so that’s what mum was. Yeah. Cool. Cool. And so I’d imagine this recording is going to be useful for new surrogacy teams when new mums come along and they’re wondering how their kids are going to cope with it. The idea of surrogacy, I’m sure hearing from you guys helps them go,

07:24
So let’s keep moving through our questions. What about your siblings if you’ve each got them? How did they feel about surrogacy? See the same or different? Do you remember those conversations, Cooper? It was really just a big family conversation, honestly. A huge blended family, lots and lots of conversations, but every all my siblings and stuff they had really the same reaction as I did, honestly. Very similar. I might add in the two questions at a time there. So siblings similar. What about extended family? Like grandparents or aunts and uncles or was there

07:54
at all? Not really no honestly everyone was really supportive right as I said earlier no one was really surprised. Okay it’s like oh mum Gemma she’s doing something else of course. Yeah. Eleanor for you, your siblings how did they react? I don’t think they really had a reaction. Brendan just isn’t really fazed by any of that sort of stuff and I have no idea about Daniel. Sure yep.

08:18
And then what about extended families like your dad or any grandparents and aunts and uncles concerns? My dad I think had a few questions but like me he knew he couldn’t really stop her so we just went along with it. We don’t have much…

08:32
connection with mom’s extended family, but again dad’s extended family, there’s nothing they can do about it. Yep, I’m just thinking ahead to therefore what the pregnancy might have been like and any support that he might have had to give, but we’ll get to pregnancy. What about you Clarity? You got a one brother’s a little bit older and one a little bit older again.

08:52
Extended family, any concerns or reactions? Not really. Dustin and Jordan were both pretty excited about it but Dustin sometimes would forget that we were doing surrogacy and he forgot that mum was pregnant a couple times so he was like wait what mum’s pregnant? So that’s Dustin for you and then extended family they were obviously a little bit worried about.

09:12
you know, any risks that could happen, but they were really supportive about it. So that’s good to hear. Um, Dustin, he’s a year older than you or thereabouts. He’s a year younger than me. He’s the young, of course. Wrong way around. He’s just so tall. Yes. And I suppose that could happen. The younger the kids get, the trying to remember what is actually happening. Yeah. Catching you each on the spot here then. How old were you then when mum was pregnant for each of you? So, um, Eleanor, if it’s two years ago then today. Yeah, I was like 13. Yep.

09:42
How old were you then? I think I was 11 or 12 when mum first got pregnant. And Cooper then? I was 12, yeah. Yes. So I suppose for those listening, we got that headspace of kids that age who are watching their mum be pregnant. My kids were four and six when I birthed, so they had some other stories perhaps they might tell. But when in terms of I was trying to think of which kids might come on and do this webinar, I wasn’t quite sure what type of answers I would get if I had six or eight

10:12
brave it and um do another one with young ones on but we’ll see. All right, going through my questions there. What about explaining surrogacy to other kids? Is that something you ever had to do? Explaining that your mum’s pregnant and right, Eleanor you’re nodding, you go first. Well because mum’s been doing surrogacy since I was three and I’ve had pretty good connections with most of the kids in the families, I’ve had to explain who my cousins are.

10:35
Yes, just explaining that the first couple, the mother just kept having miscarriages and she couldn’t handle any more but she really wanted a baby, so mum carried a child for her and the other two are two men who can’t have a baby on their own. So it’s obvious in that way. You mentioned the term cousins just there. Is that the sort of language that you’ve been using?

10:56
what I refer to them and some of the egg donor babies as just because that’s how I feel the relationship is but I know that they use different terms for referring to me so. Fair enough. What about you then Clarity? Do you remember friends reactions or having to explain it at school to teachers or anything? So I definitely explained it to a lot of my friends because it’s something that I’m really proud of so I explained to them how my mum was pregnant and then it wasn’t my sister it was just…

11:22
somebody that my mum was carrying. So when I refer to Evie, which is the surrogacy baby, to my friends, I call them my little Evie thingy because that’s when they’re like, oh yeah, this is Evie.

11:32
because I am very open about it and like I’ve talked to my friends about it a lot. Did any of your friends have reactions like, oh, like isn’t your mum going to want to keep the baby? Or how do you feel that she’s given away your sibling? Even though we all know it’s not like that’s not how it feels. Yeah, they were all like thought that it was so cool and super nice that my mum would do that for people. I’m glad it was positive reactions then. Yeah. And in your mum’s case then, Clarity, your mum was also the egg donor and the surrogate. So that was not the initial plan. I mean, did anybody ask particular questions going, you know,

12:02
Oh, whose egg is it? Yeah, I don’t think so. I was, you know, I told them, I was like, it’s my mom’s egg and it’s Ben’s sperm, but it’s Sarah and Ben’s kid. It’s not a sister and it’s not coming home with me. And they understood it quite well, so. Did your friends ever ask you why they needed a surrogate in the first place, the couple Sarah and Ben? No, I don’t think my friends asked about that. Assume that they needed it for some medical reason type of thing. Yeah, I think so. Whereas in your case, Cooper, your mom carried for two dads. So I’m sure any friends that asked,

12:31
then became obvious why you needed a surrogate. Reactions from your friends? Um, wasn’t really many reactions. The people I really did tell, they were like, oh okay cool, and they kind of just really just brushed it off because I don’t think they really knew what it meant. But they just didn’t, I just feel like they didn’t want to know so. And I don’t really go around, I know I’m very proud of it, but at the same time it’s not something I just go around

12:59
if you know what I mean. I haven’t got a print on a t-shirt. Like, my mum is a surrogate, ask me about it. …around saying, my mum’s a surrogate. It’s not something I really talk about much honestly. It’s like a… Anna, just quickly, Cooper, so he does refer to the children.

13:18
as his cousins or, you know, egg donor children surrogate, you know, beautiful baby for a bit of a shock factor. So Cooper went through his first job interview a couple of weeks ago and one of the questions in the job interview was tell two truths and a lie. Cooper said, okay, I’ve caught a shark off a boat. Oh, I’ve done two years of break dancing and I have 13 siblings and they all thought, okay, like that’s a lie. And he goes, no. And then, but

13:45
proudly then went on to explain about, well, that’s not a lie because, you know, like I called them my cousins, but, and so that was really cute. Did you get the job? Yes, I did.

14:00
Woohoo, maybe it was worth it. It was worth it in the end. And I imagine for some of those people that you were explaining it to, perhaps haven’t met anybody or know much about egg donation in surrogacy, so you were probably educating them along the way. Did the impressions on their faces would have been interesting? They were just not shocked.

14:19
surprised. Yeah. And I imagine hearing a young person speak so eloquently and articulately about it would have been, they’re like, oh wow, he’s not making this up, he really knows what he’s talking about. Yeah, doing it for two years, just knowing about it. Mum doing the stuff for 10 years and then just including the two years of what I’ve learned about all that I’ve learned about surrogacy, it’s really just, yeah, natural. Yeah, that’s great to hear. Okay, so then

14:49
what memories you’ve got but maybe let’s just focus on the pregnancy itself. Pregnancy can be hard for women and each of your mums are obviously older than when they had you being pregnant and so it gets harder the older that you get. Are there certain things that you remember of tired and grumpy mum or how was it a fine smooth pregnancy? Cooper do you want to kick me off? Stress.

15:12
Just for you or mum? Ah, for mum and me as well. Just the whole family really. Well, most of the family. First 30 or so weeks went pretty fine, until I came home from school one day to find mum wasn’t there. I then give her a call. Turns out she’s been rushed to hospital because her water broke 10 weeks early. So that’s fun.

15:36
knowing that my mum is in Brisbane and I’m just at home. Stepdad had to come home from, he was out on a work trip and so he had to come home stressed, very stressful. And so worried about your mum and making sure she’s okay and worried about the baby, when you’re gonna see each other again. Is that how then the next few weeks went? Yeah.

15:57
Yeah, so the baby was born a couple of weeks after that. They managed to sort of stabilize it for a bit. What was the time then until you got to see your mum again? Oh, a few weeks, just a couple of days. Yeah. After I’d learned that the village rallied around. Yeah, you’re able to see her. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s yeah, we might come back and touch on that. So that was quite a stressful factor there for yourself and your family and the dads and all of that, too. Unexpected, isn’t it? And that can happen in surrogacy.

16:25
Yeah. Eleanor, for you, what was pregnancy like watching your mum be pregnant? Well, she’s done it a few times. So that much I was used to. This one, me and my mum’s bodies are strangely synchronized. I got, as far as I’m aware, most of her morning sickness while she was pregnant. I was sick for her. Well, that’s very kind of you to share the bird. I don’t really remember much. I remember poking Charlie a lot, playing with his toes. Yes, as in…

16:53
when he was in her belly. Yeah, I’m just grabbing his feet while he’s kicking. They look like aliens, don’t they? Well, that’s how I feel.

17:00
Alrighty and Clarity, do you remember mum being pregnant? Yeah so it was a pretty smooth pregnancy. There was a couple of weeks where mum had some pretty bad headaches and then mum has a hernia so there was one day where she did have to go to the hospital just because she was in a lot of pain but everything ended up being okay. The baby was okay, my mum was okay which was the important thing but other than that it was really smooth sailing with the pregnancy. Okay and she’s planning to do it again in the future with a new couple isn’t she? So let’s see how the next one goes as well.

17:30
Yeah, hopefully it all goes well. Yeah. And so then I feel like you’re all skimming over that. I’m sure if we dug deep, there was some

17:36
particularly hard things. But then I suppose we head towards the birth. And so I’d love to hear from each of you, what was that like? Particularly I know for Eleanor who was there, but for the rest of you hearing about it and then getting to meet baby for the first time. And what was it like the first few weeks and months after in terms of seeing the baby and the parents being parents? So Eleanor, do you wanna kick us off and tell us? Cause you were at the birth, yeah? I was, I was at the birth. It was quite interesting.

18:02
I had to leave the room for a little bit because mum was in so much pain she had asked for me to leave. Yeah right. And I came back in, she doesn’t remember it but she was pretty sweary.

18:11
But it was really interesting seeing the baby come out because like I’ve heard what happens in words but I haven’t seen it and it was a water birth so it was yeah it was interesting and I got to hold Charlie before one of his dads did which is kind of special. That’s really special. Having seen the birth are you glad you were there or you kind of now wish you weren’t? I’m glad I was there but I’m also kind of put off the idea of having kids because mum said that was a really good one and she seemed to be in so much pain.

18:41
I wonder if that’s influenced your own thoughts for the future? A little bit. Not in any rush at the moment? Yeah, no. So let’s just do the birth then. So Cooper, you heard about the birth then and you were there soon after? I only got to meet him about a month after. I’d just gotten home when it had happened. I didn’t get to meet him for a month, about a month after that he was in the NICU.

19:04
uh, Nicky because of how, uh, early he had come out. And when you met him, did they come up to you or you came down to them? I came down to them. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so then Clarity, do you remember meeting Evie for the first time? Yeah. So because it was during COVID, we weren’t allowed to go into the hospital to see mum and see the birth. But it was a couple of days later, like I think it was the weekend after that we got to meet Evie. So mum cried a lot. She was very emotional. And she was for the first couple of weeks whenever we saw Evie. Tell me more about it.

19:34
Was that when she got her babies to meet their baby? Do you think that’s why she was emotional? Yeah, I think so. Because especially when I like held Izzy for the first time, she just was crying a lot. I think it was just really bittersweet for her to see it. Bittersweet. How do you mean by that? Seeing her kids hold this baby, seeing this family that she had known for such a long time.

19:55
finally get their family and like it all just working out in the end. Yep sounds a bit like a fairy tale. Yeah. And so then staying with you Clarity, in the weeks and months post-birth, so often in the surrogacy world we talk about how there’s this thing called head heart hormones and how your head and your heart, we know where baby is, baby’s safe or in intensive care unit in the case of Rupert with Cooper’s family there, we did what we wanted to do but then our body as a birthing woman, the hormones have to adjust and get

20:25
baby and that can you know lead to feelings of sometimes feeling a bit lost or confused or sad you don’t want the baby but your body’s probably going where’s the baby do any of you have memories of that adjustment for your mom so clarity do you remember that few months post-birth being tricky or okay I mean cuz I’m still pretty young it seemed to be okay but I think for my mom it was definitely probably a bit rough but I think she knew that you know like you said that

20:51
She knew the baby wasn’t coming home with her and that it wasn’t her kid. So there were, I’m guessing, no times where your mum’s went, Oh, I wish I could have the baby back. No, I don’t think so. So Eleanor, that was a definite head shake for you. Yeah, she just looked at me and said, God, no. So, yeah. Yeah. Do you remember those times post birth? Was there particularly challenging times for mum? Well, the first one.

21:14
I remember being pretty easy for mum and I to let go of. The mother was Indian, so the child came out darker skinned. So it was very easy to be like, yeah, okay, that’s not ours. I don’t remember the second one. And by the time we had Charlie, we were used to it. We had already known from the get-go that we weren’t keeping this kid. This isn’t my sibling. Like this is going.

21:36
to another family. Yeah. And I think that’s probably a classic question. People wondering, oh, how are you as kids? You know, did you want to keep the baby at all? But it sounds like, of course, it’s not like it’s a surprise when birth comes along that baby’s not coming home. It’s you know, you’ve prepared for that. And then for you, Cooper, so your mum had her body to recover post-birth and a caesarean, which is, it means probably limited driving and things like that. Do you remember those first few months post-birth? Were they challenging? They were challenging, but mostly just full of pride.

22:04
Really? Really happy that everything went well? Really?

22:07
glad to see James and Jim Bob with their new baby boy. Really nice to see. Yeah, you get to see your friends be parents, don’t you? And help manage. More than friends, basically family, honestly. Yeah, see them as uncles, little Rupert is our cousin. Yeah, very grateful. I’ve got here that surrogates usually feel a high after birthing a child for their friends. How did you feel? Cooper, it feels like you’ve almost just answered that one. Did you feel that high as well? Yeah, just excitement.

22:37
Yeah.

22:38
but everything just went well. As I said, just happy to see them all happy together. Oh it’s funny to say everything went well, it actually didn’t. Not everything, but towards the end it all worked out. Yeah. And here we are, you know, many months later, a year and a bit later, I guess that, what is it, like fades into the background now, some of those tough times. Yeah. Eleanor then, did you feel that hard? Um, a little bit. I was very excited to see the baby I’ve been playing with for so long, actually like come out of the womb and

23:08
actually be able to look at his face. He was very cute, Charlie. I don’t remember the other two very much because I was so little. And then, Clarity? I was really happy. I’ve loved Evie immediately. Like, I was just like, oh, I wanna see Evie. Like, because I just loved Evie and I was so excited to finally be able to meet this baby that people have been talking about for months. And it just felt really surreal and it was so special. That’s cool. It’s probably a nice lead on to then say, you’re excited to meet the baby. So do you still get to see the baby?

23:38
What connection do you feel that you have with the baby and its parents? So Clarity, do you still get to see Evie? Yeah, I was actually on a picnic playdate with her, like last week, I think. Yeah. So I had to go down with the slide with her heaps of times, but we still do get to see Ben and Sarah and Evie a lot. What is a lot? So we try and catch up as much as we can, but obviously things have been going on outside of it, but I think every couple of months we see each other. Yeah, I’m just trying to imagine her asking you to go down the slide with her. She’s like…

24:07
Clarity again? Pretty much. Yeah she would like get to the bottom of the slide and then she’d like run around to like climb up the top again. She’s like I go down with you now Clarity, it’s so cute. Yes I think it’s always nice when they say your name too isn’t it then you know they’re talking about you. Yeah and she always calls me her bestie as well. Yeah she’s like you’re my best friend Clarity, it’s so cute I love her so much.

24:31
Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah. And Eleanor, what about you? So two years on, how do you feel with surrogate Bub Charlie? So I babysit him whenever they need me to. He hasn’t said my name yet, which makes me kind of sad, but he does share his food with me.

24:44
which he doesn’t do with anybody else. He gave me some of his special crackers, but we try to see him when we can. It’s just trying to balance that around mom’s work and the dad’s work and hmm. When you can, would that be once every couple of months? Yeah, I think. Fair enough. What you’ve just said there about the babysitting, that could be quite unique to some people listening. Tell us about that. Have you done babysitting for other people or is that something you planned as a team to do? So I had been hoping to do babysitting for a while because I’m good with kids and I like spending time with kids.

25:14
Yeah, one of the dads just offered it up because I didn’t really know how to get into it.

25:18
like how I’m supposed to start that conversation with people. So then I just sort of did. That’s awesome. And they just had me over and then they went out on a date while I looked after Charlie. I’d imagine there’s a lot of trust that goes on there. Yeah, that’s lovely that your team got to that place, that they trust your mum as a surrogate but then also further, you know, trusting her children. It’s lovely. What about you Cooper? How do you feel at this connection to Rupert watching him grow up?

25:48
and sometimes just a few, sometimes like once in a couple of months or so. They live in Brisbane, so it just makes it a little bit harder, but like just doing that trip. But yeah, just seeing him grow up, it’s been really nice. Is it often you guys going down to Brisbane to visit? Um.

26:04
It’s really just a mixture. Most of the time we’re going down to Brisbane because we do have family there, not just to see Bob, but at the same time it’s also nice to see them also taking that bit of initiative and coming down to see us, coming up to see us. Coming up to see you. And then in the meantime, in-person visits, do you send photos or FaceTime? Other ways to keep in touch in between?

26:31
Yeah, we’re always just sending photos, FaceTiming, calls, basically every second day at this point. And again, that might be unique to some teams too, they might not be in contact that much. So it’s interesting hearing the variation. Do you have a kids messenger account or something that you directly message the dads or it’s mainly through your mum? Yeah, and I also talk through mum as well. Yeah. Yeah. I’m winging that question. Eleanor, do you directly contact the dads sometimes then? Yeah, I have both of their phone numbers and both of them on Facebook. Yep. Clarity?

27:01
do you have much one-on-one contact with the parents? Yeah with FaceTime we have a group chat called Just Write so we send photos to EB update each other on life and stuff but yeah. So they would you would share like updates about your life too in those sorts of things? Yeah. Yeah cool. Yeah they’re really interested in about our lives as well so. That’s great I think it’s really valuable for people to hear what it looks like after they can imagine the whole journey but then

27:31
to hear. So then we’re sort of summarizing the large parts of the journey here. Is there anything that you wish had been done differently? Cooper, in your, in that journey, if time could go again, maybe him not being born so early? Honestly, yeah, according to mum, uh, that would have been nice, uh, having him born not so early, but I personally, in my opinion, I don’t feel like anything.

27:58
have been done differently. I think it was beautifully the way. Was there anything really tough then? I suppose you did already mention that that separation unexpectedly. Was there anything else that was particularly challenging? Not really. It was just mainly that. Just the separation all of a sudden. Yeah, thank you. What about you Eleanor? Is there anything you wish could be done differently or that was tricky? Not that I can recall. I know that mum’s talked about a few things that she wished were done differently, but again it’s just because like surrogacy has been so normal.

28:28
in my life for so long that I don’t like I don’t know no idea. That’s good if there’s nothing that feels like needs changing. Clarity for you? Honestly I don’t think so it’s like if something had gone differently Evie wouldn’t be who she is and for all we know our bond between the IPs couldn’t have been as strong so I think that everything worked out how it was supposed to. And because your mum’s going into the planning of well they’ve quite far along the planning of the next year is there anything that’s happening different? Is it a similar thing built getting to know Matt and Vicky and building up that

28:58
It was pretty similar but I feel like the process is a lot different, not a lot different but we were with Sarah and Ben before mum got pregnant for quite a long time and with Matt and Vicky I feel like it’s moved a lot quicker but we’ve still gotten to know them very well and I feel like they’ve gotten to know us really well as well. I can clearly hear that there’s definitely an ongoing bond with the baby and the parents. Well, the first family we did we don’t have any contact with anymore.

29:24
Yeah, okay. Basically none? Yeah, I haven’t seen the little boy in, I don’t even know how long. Yeah.

29:30
I wonder if he knows his story then or not? He does. We saw him when he was younger, but yeah, I can’t remember the last time we saw him. Is that something that you would like to see him or? Yeah. Yeah? And is that sort of feels like it’s out of your control? A little bit, because when we… I can’t remember if they live in Sydney or Brisbane, but whenever we go to Brisbane, as far as I’m aware, we try to get in contact with them to organise to meet up and they just don’t. Mum just said that they’re just busy. I hear that the second journey though, you saw quite recently,

30:00
and the little boy Jake is 10? Yeah. Wow, 10. Yeah, and so again, continuing that sort of cousin feel there. I guess that brings me to that question then in terms of if the contact did stop, how would you feel? Eleanor, you’ve touched on then that the first journey has stopped and how would you feel if the other two stopped? Quite upset. I think I’d really miss Jake and Callum, even though Callum, his brother,

30:24
My mum didn’t carry and didn’t do the donor for, so we have no relation to him like that, but he’s still like family. I’d be pretty upset if they cut contact. The Sams did too, but I think it’d be hard because we see them in daily life. Because you’re more local to each other. So cut contact and you live locally, that would be hard because you might bump into them. Yeah. Clarity for you, if contact stopped, how would you feel?

30:47
losing surrogate baby Evie and the parents? I feel like it’d be devastating. I feel like it’d be like I lost a part of myself. These are the people that I’ve grown up around. They’re not just strangers anymore. They’re a part of my family and I looked up to them and I feel like if I lost contact with them, I’d be absolutely devastated. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Cooper?

31:07
How would you feel? I feel like I’d be losing a part of it, losing just a part of my life. There’s no really getting back. If we got contacts, then just be devastating really. Especially because we’ve been through this whole time, all these stressful moments and stuff. It just be heartbreaking really. I’m really interesting for people listening to hear this because all of these people were strangers in your lives beforehand and they’ve come into your lives

31:37
not just your mum having built this connection with the people she carried for, but it’s this ripple effect. You guys have come along for the ride too and built this connection and they’re lifelong connections we hope. I’m gonna ask my last tricky question, whether or not I should ask this question or not. We had a bit of a group chat going with the kids and the mums in this week leading up to this. And my question was, do you think surrogates should be paid to do this or not? So I’m gonna go Eleanor first. I don’t think I’ve got both of my parents watching now.

32:07
I think that there should be, what’s the word, compensated. There should be compensation for the damage that is done to women’s bodies by giving birth. Yeah, and how hard it can be on the family and just covering things like the Sam’s, the most recent couple, they got us somebody to clean our house for a bit during the pregnancy. And just stuff like that I think is fair, but I don’t think that they should be paying for a child. Like, you’re not buying the baby off of us, you’re not renting my mum.

32:37
a really tricky debate that I know is ongoing in Australia and different countries in terms of we understand covering the costs like paying the cost of a cleaner and that sort of stuff but is there some sort of compensation for the wear and tear on your body after it’s but not having it seem like you’re paying for a child? Yeah because my mum’s first surrogacy, the birth did damage to her pelvic floor and the second, yeah I’m telling them, and the second one did some pretty harsh tearing.

33:06
So I think that there should be compensation for stuff like that, because it is somewhat damaging. It is, absolutely. Yep, these are the realities of surrogacy here. Clarity, what about you? I don’t think surrogates should be paid. I mean, if surrogates would be paid, then people would do it for the wrong reasons. Like, I agree with like paying for appointments for the surrogate. And like, I think with Sarah and Ben, they gave us a credit card to like buy things that we needed. And I agree with that.

33:31
but I don’t think overall you shouldn’t be paying for a baby. It’s something that you should do out of the kindness of your heart. Fair enough. Yeah. Cooper.

33:37
I completely understand the paying for certain things throughout the surrogacy, but I personally believe that I feel like an overall payment for a child especially is not… I just don’t agree with it personally. It takes away the altruism of the entire thing. You won’t ever… If you’re doing it for the money, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons, and you’ll never

34:07
for. I understand that people are like, oh yeah, I feel like surrogate should be paid, but at the same time I also feel like, okay, it’s kind of like human trafficking. Yeah and it’s the debate that comes up in terms of at what line are we paying for a life here and you can’t, that’s human trafficking. I’m just going to add my couple of bits in, see if I spark any of you on this. The things to think about are that, you know, there are countries where that’s how surrogacy works.

34:37
and that they’re, it’s a commercial surrogacy arrangement. And I don’t think that the women are any less kind and giving. They, because there’s still a lot of routines and checks and stuff they have to go through because I’ve met some international surrogates. They just happen to live in a country where you do get paid that they don’t necessarily want to, but, but it’s also a way to support themselves and to…

35:00
give back. But then another thing is I’ve run one of these panels at one of the live conferences in person. I’ve interviewed the children born from surrogacy. Now granted they were sort of about 11 and 12 and most they were born through overseas surrogacy because the ones that have been born through Australian surrogacy haven’t come to your age yet and they all totally agreed that a surrogate should be paid. They went oh yes it’s hard work having a baby you know my parents wouldn’t be parents if somebody didn’t help out that’s hard work you should get paid for that. So that was

35:30
that the kids born from surrogacy thought you should. Do any of you want to add anything to the couple of things I’ve said there? At the same time it’s like not every parent can afford to pay for a baby and for some people…

35:42
Having a baby is the one thing that they truly want. And a lot of them can’t afford to just be paying for a baby. But I get why people think that surrogates should be paid at the same time. Eleanor? I do agree with like, cause I know in some countries surrogates get paid to like $50,000 and that’s already the amount that it is to get the egg donor and all of that. So I think it’s ridiculous to have to pay double the money to have a surrogate. But I do think that women should be paid an amount for carrying a child. Cause as I said, that’s a lot.

36:12
there could be things that go wrong in the pregnancy and there’s just so many risk factors. Yeah, there is sometimes some discussion in Australia about a small compensation, maybe five or $10,000. And that you might then take your family on a holiday because your family’s had to put up with mum during pregnancy being tired and grumpy and this could be a way to repay her family. So that’s perhaps one path Australia might go down. We’re not sure. Cooper, did you want to add anything extra there? I personally just feel like why should

36:40
gay men or lesbian women, why should they be penalized for being socially infertile for wanting a family? I feel like, just, you’re already spending so much money on, like, everything else for the surrogacy. Every- everything about it, like, all the scans, everything- all the doctor’s appointments, everything else. All the- all the legal stuff. I just personally feel like they’re already spending so much money on this. I just feel like they shouldn’t be penalized, or just have to spend any more money than they already are, because they want a family.

37:10
Yeah, it’s certainly unfair. Like for the dads that I carried for it cost them $60,000 to have their baby. $30,000 was IVF and then all of the other bits along the way. Whereas, you know, most male female couples doesn’t cost you anything to have a baby, unless you’ve got medical challenges, of course. So yes, it’s certainly an injustice.

37:28
either due to being what’s called socially infertile or in terms of you have medical challenges. Yeah, so it’s an interesting debate and it’s really interesting to hear your thoughts and somebody in the chat has said, such mature and articulate young people. Thank you so much for this important conversation. And another, that was Rachel and Sarah Jane, SJ in chat has said, it’s interesting to see the potential far reaching impact of a surrogacy journey where the surrogate’s children don’t get the opportunity to see the child or the parents. These children have also invested

37:58
feelings and emotions into these journeys. And you can hear that from your replies that you’ve shared here, that how invested you have become in this journey. It’s not, it might’ve been mum whose idea it was, she wanted to do this. And then her family comes along for the ride and you do get invested in these people and this child, as I think we can hear tonight. Karina has said, Oh, sorry Cooper, so proud of my beautiful grandson, Cooper. Speaking from your heart and so very supportive of your mum and everything she has done in her egg donation and surrogacy journey.

38:28
I’m sure this comment would be relevant to all three of you and your belief in everything that anyone that a human can do for another is so mature, beautiful and non-judgmental.

38:36
I think that sums it up for all of you here tonight. And I really hope this becomes a great resource for other people to listen to in the future, just to normalise that surrogacy can be another way in Australia to have a family. So any last bits of parting wisdom or advice that you’ve thought of that you wanted to mention? We haven’t covered Cooper, anything else you want to add? Not really, no. Eleanor? I have a funny story about when the only experience I had with pregnancy was surrogacy. And I was at the shop with my mum one time and saw a pregnant lady.

39:06
and I asked her who she was having her baby for. Yes! And do you remember the expression on her face or your mum? I don’t, I don’t even remember this but my mum tells me about it every once in a while. Yes, my daughter who was six said something similar when her friend’s mum was pregnant. She said something like, whose house is the baby going to live in? Because in our house babies don’t stay with us.

39:31
What about you, Clarity? Anything funny that springs to mind? So I know that one of the questions was advice for surrogates and IPs. So I think for surrogates who have kids, I think the more you explain it to them, the more they understand and the more comfortable they feel with it. Because that’s what my mum did for me and my brother. She explained all of it. And then when things change, she would explain that as well. And then for IPs, I think the biggest thing is…

39:55
Don’t forget your surrogate family and don’t hurt them because they, like you said before, the family puts, you know, their emotions and their lives and their passion into this. And I feel like IPs just need to make sure that they’re always going to be there for the family as well. And I think that’s really important for surrogacy as a whole. Absolutely. I’m seeing nods there from the others. Did you want to add to that, Cooper? No, I’m just, I just agree honestly. I just agree with all the clarity statements, honestly. You too, Eleanor? Yeah. I think you summed that up beautifully there, Clarity.

40:25
for future teams. Don’t forget the surrogate family and her kids because you’re investing this time. They might come into surrogacy initially thinking, oh I’m just going to have a baby, but they’re going to grow an extended family, aren’t they? Yeah, definitely. And so treat people the way you’d like to be treated, I guess. Yeah. Wonderful. And I’m seeing in the chat the thank you for being wonderful speakers, well done for sharing your experiences and I’m sure your parents and your families are very proud of you. Oh tonight, I can, as a mum, I can imagine that they would definitely be.

40:54
Thank you for joining me. If you’d like to see other recordings with photos, head over to our YouTube channel to watch other webinars. You can head to surrogacyaustralia.org for more information about surrogacy. Also check out our Zoom monthly catch-up sessions, which are a great way to connect with others in the surrogacy community. Attending a Zoom is scary the first time, but there’s only ever one first time.

41:16
We have all been beginners at some stage. As we say, it takes a village to raise a child, and in the case of surrogacy, it takes a village to make a child. So welcome to the village.