Episode 133 – Joel – gay dad

00:13
the Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series. I’m your host Anna McKie and my aim is to raise the level of awareness of surrogacy through these conversations. This podcast is a recording from a webinar that I host and you can find more details about those and upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org. The webinars are free, go for an hour and we’ll take you through how surrogacy works in Australia. You can ask questions, typing them in anonymously if you prefer.

00:41
and you hear from a co-host who has navigated surrogacy in Australia, either a surrogate, a gay dad, or a straight mum. This episode, recorded in December 2025, features Joel. Joel is a trailblazer, as the first man to become a single dad through surrogacy in Tasmania. His son Mason was born in February 2025. His surrogate Jess lives in Launceston with her husband Ryan and their blended family of eight children.

01:09
They were previously strangers, but connected thanks to a Facebook post he did explaining his situation, which got shared widely. His egg donor Vanessa is a friend from primary school. Now Audrey, the daughter of Vanessa and her wife Kate, was born a few months before Mason, so is a genetic sibling, and they will know each other as cousins as they grow up. Joel’s journey was a long one, including a move from WA back to his home state of Tasmania,

01:37
and also connections with other surrogates that didn’t work out. You can hear from Joel’s surrogate Jess in the previous episode when she was webinar co-host. I think many people will resonate with this episode. Joel talked about the ups and downs of his journey and how ultimately he had to be vulnerable in sharing his story. I hope this empowers other IPs, intended parents, to be brave and share their story too. As Joel says, the more you talk about it, the easier it becomes.

02:07
I hope you enjoy this episode. So Joel, take us back to the beginning then. How long ago was it that you first started looking into surrogacy to ultimately finding Jess? Give us a bit of a snapshot as to that journey and how you met Jess. Yeah. So for me, it started back in 2016. I was living in WA at the time and I never thought I would be in the position to be a father. Having the obstacles that I being a single guy, being same sex orientated.

02:37
So I never saw children in my future as a possibility, but it was something that I’ve always wanted. It’s been a paternal instinct that I’ve had since I can remember. Obviously living in WA, it was illegal for same-sex cunts.

02:51
couples, single males. And growing up in Tasmania, it was also illegal as well until about 2020, I think it was. can’t actually remember what year it became legal, but growing up in Tassie, then moving to WA, just didn’t think it was for me. So in 2016, I went to, I was teaching over in Outback, West Australia, and I went to DCP to become a foster parent.

03:13
to register my interest in inquiring about being a foster parent. And for anybody who’s expressed interest in becoming a foster parent, it’s quite an intense and almost invasive interview process because I need to know everything about you uh and your life and why you’re wanting to do what you. uh

03:31
what you’re here for in the meeting or the interview, why you don’t have kids of your own, your childhood, your workforce, lots of questions. And I explained in that interview that I’d wanted to be a parent for a long time, wasn’t on the cards for me. Here’s my background, here’s my story. This is why I’m here. After that, I felt reinvigorated. This is going to happen. This is amazing. This is awesome. And being a close knit community that I was in, I was telling people about what everybody talks, we were talking about what we did during the week, what we’re doing on the weekends. And it came up in conversation that I just

04:00
had my interview about becoming a foster parent because of XYZ. And it was back then another person at the party it was, party that we were at that weekend. Something clicked with her in our conversation. I didn’t realize at the time, but it wasn’t until months later that she reached out through Facebook and said, hey, Joel, me and my partner, we’ve been talking over the last few months about your story. And it’s really resonated with us. We’ve got four kids. We’ve got a connection with you. Let’s have a chat about what we can do to help you.

04:30
So that was my first introduction to surrogacy, guess, or somebody helping me to become a father, because prior to that, I didn’t think it was a viable option. So that was my first moment where I thought, hang on a second, there’s people out there who are actually willing and able to help support, sacrifice, have such an altruistic or selfless outlook where they are willing to help other people. So that was my first exposure, I guess, to surrogacy back in 2016. So yeah, we tried for a while.

05:00
unsuccessfully, but lovingly, of course. And then met a couple of surrogates along the way, only three friends and family. didn’t actually share my story widely on forums or Facebook at that stage. was just through conversation at parties, friends, gatherings, work, just organic conversations, just easy conversations. And the more you talk about it, the easier it becomes. To begin with, it was quite tricky to me. I did feel a sense of taboo.

05:25
with it being illegal in Tassie and illegal in WA. I’m doing something that I’m not supposed to be doing. I did try a few times with surrogates, friends and family surrogates over the years in creative ways, I guess you could say. Air bunny surrogates. I’ve had a few guests on the webinar series where they’ve had to be creative. There was one set of dads that did traditional surrogacy in Canberra. At the time it wasn’t legal and they didn’t come on to be webinar co-hosts until they

05:55
law had changed and then retrospectively they were allowed to be. so yes and that single mum Hannah I showed in the photos technically at the time you couldn’t be a single mum in South Australia so they had to be creative and pretend to live in New South Wales so I can absolutely appreciate that there are.

06:10
There are ways of doing things. It’s also interesting that you said each of the surrogates you connected with, it was quite organic. It was just through conversations with friends and family. And I really liked what you said there that the more you talk about it, the easier it becomes. I think that’s really empowering to new IPs listening to go, okay, right. It might be a bit scary at first to put it out there. And essentially you’re sort of asking the universe to help because you need the help of somebody else. just by even sharing your story that yes, you do want to be a parent and this is your path.

06:40
oh that might be people that step forward and it sounds like you had a few women over time that were who are a bit crazy as surrogates we all think we are a little bit crazy that go actually I could try and maybe do this for you so yeah it probably helped confirm to you that there were women prepared to do this but unfortunately it kept not working.

06:57
many times. yeah, that’s challenging. Yeah, that’s right. It is challenging. That’s a good word to use because it’s not cut and paste. It’s not carbon copy. It’s not the same every single time. It is a roller coaster journey. There are a lot of ups and downs and people always say, and it’s so cliche, but cliche is a steeped in truth. The cliche, you know, it takes a village to raise a child. know, the same goes with friends. It takes a village to pick up friends and support friends. So on that roller coaster of life over the years, I had a really good village.

07:27
around me, really good support network, which ultimately helped me find Jess in the end because after my fourth surrogate, I’d given up hope. You know, thought, you know what, I have had more opportunity than a lot of people. I’ve been very fortunate at this stage where I was in the 20 attempts, 21 attempts of, you know, trying to get this little bundle of joy who’s refusing.

07:51
to sleep. can see him on the video monitor there playing happily in his cot. And then when the laws in Tasmania changed around 2019, 2020, my friend Vanessa, who I went to primary school with, she reached out and was like, Joel, look, the laws have updated now. It’s now legal to do surrogacy. Have you considered, you know, Tasmania? And she’s like, look, I will offer to be an egg donor if it’s something you want to do now or down the track. So.

08:19
2020, Vanessa donated some eggs. did a round of egg retrieval, got 10 eggs. And through that process, we ended up with three embryos, which is a rollercoaster in itself, watching those eggs dwindle away, you know, whether they’re viable or not, they, whether they, the cell count grows, whether they thaw or defrost. That’s a busy time in your brain as well when that happens. And then, so I had eggs.

08:46
there and my fourth throw came along and had some an unsuccessful journey there and then I was at Vanessa and Kate’s and like oh how’s your journey going? I’m like no you know I’m tapping out I’m happy where I’m at you know it’s been a long time um more downs than ups you know I’m going to focus on you know building myself up and then they’ve got a shack more camping at their shack at the time and uh

09:11
You know, they pumped up my ties. They made me feel good. I’m like, Joel, you know, you’ve got these embryos and I put your story out there. I said, Oh, I have been putting my story out there. You know, I’ve been speaking to friends, colleagues, family, and they’re like, I said, I’m on the forums on Facebook and they’re like, well, you know, how many people have you successfully connected with on the forums? like beyond sort of superficial, today’s, how you going a little bit of basic serenading, not a whole lot.

09:36
And they’re like, well, you you’ve had a lot of success finding people who will help you win your friends and family. How about putting your story public on Facebook and sharing it? And then you might get, you know, some more interest. like, oh, I just, the idea of being vulnerable around friends and family is one thing, but the idea of being vulnerable and sharing a story to random people um who judge you based on face value or their own ideologies is really scary and really hard at times. um So I had a real.

10:05
bari-gram players where I’m like, no, I don’t want to put myself in this vulnerable position. You know, I’ve already been exposed enough, you know, over the last years trying to have success with this journey. There’s only so many layers I can take off myself. Anyway, we might’ve had a sneaky lemonade with the code name GNT. And then, yeah, they convinced me. They encouraged me. They supported me to draft up an introduction post to put on my own personal social media.

10:34
Facebook, which I did and I knew that my friends on Facebook would be supportive. But I wasn’t prepared for how much my story would get shared and how much support from people who I didn’t know, strangers. That to me was quite overwhelming, the traction that it got and the support. It was kind words, people saying, know, this is amazing, good luck to you. If I was in this position, you know, I’d love to help or, you know, I hope that someone can help you because…

11:00
I wish someone would have helped me or, know, it just resonated with a lot of people. um And then ultimately, obviously being in Tasmania, you need to have a Tasmanian at surrogate who lives in Tasmania. There’s no creative ways around it if you’re going through the system. That’s why I moved back to Tasmania. I still couldn’t do it in WA.

11:19
So I back to Tassie, did the post, got some traction, connected with some lovely people in Tasmania, had some really good conversations. But like Jess mentioned a couple of weeks ago in her webinar, she said that I was just waffling to begin with, but not really going anywhere.

11:33
just because I was really aware and really self-conscious of the fact that I can’t say, hey, thanks for connecting. Do you want to be my surrogate? So we just had a lot of small talk and to me it was purposeful small talk without, for me it was a black and white, you know, I couldn’t say hey ABC. And I think Jess is getting a bit frustrated because she’s like, hey, you know, I’m interested, know, heading to Hobart doing this, let’s chat. And then it wasn’t until, I can’t remember, was within a week, she’s like, sorry, are you going to say yes or have you found other

12:03
people I’m like what are you talking about? And that’s where she goes yeah I’d like to be a surrogate. Oh that’s so cool and then we started chatting and then obviously in the meantime she was talking about her family and she has a very big family, very big beautiful family.

12:19
And, um, you know, she’s like, I have to chat to my husband, Ryan, and, um, you know, I’m sure he’ll be on board and, know, I’m super excited. And I’m like, well, just had that conversation for seeing how it goes. Um, I’m here to chat. Um, he didn’t have a conversation. sound like a cool person. Even if you, even if this doesn’t eventually, you know, I can tell just by the way that we were connecting that we would be good friends regardless. So that’s how I met Jess at the end of the day. There are a other people in Tassie that I was chatting to who are beautiful people. Jess was just very, as I might talk about later.

12:49
and where the conversation goes, she can be very forward. So she’s like, let’s do this. Not verbatim. She’s like, let’s do this. Come on, I’m keen. I’m ready. If you’re keen, I’m keen. That was the vibe anyway. So I’m like, out of the potential people that I was chatting to, me getting a bit older, I thought, this sounds like it could happen. So ultimately, that’s why I… um

13:11
Yeah, that’s a connection with Jess. Yeah. Yeah. Jess has joined us on the webinar tonight and she’s written in chat, I thought he wasn’t interested. Haha. So yes, so that’s a, it’s a tricky line to juggle. I remember with my IPs on the second date, I said to them, I’m offering to date you. Uh, so I wasn’t officially offering to be their surrogate. I wanted to take that time, but I kind of also wanted to let them know that I wanted to go steady or I essentially wanted to be exclusive. then they weren’t talking to another surrogate and I wasn’t talking to any other IPs. So you

13:41
of want to make that start of the commitment. well that’s a great summary of, wow, your journey to get here and then…

13:47
ultimately connecting with Jess. And I suppose we might jump into some of the photos that you’ve shared with me now um of the journey. So we’ve got some photos here of what I’m assuming is at the embryo transfer stage. But just prior to that, is there anything that you would like to remember about your journey in terms of anything that springs to mind of the surro dating stage or the counseling and legals or these IVF clinic appointments? Is there anything briefly that springs to mind?

14:12
I’m just seeing photos with Jess and this reminded me of a conversation when you said sorry dating. The first time we actually met, we’d been speaking for a while and the first time we actually met, we met at Launceston at one of the Riverbend parks, big park there. And I didn’t realize at the time, she didn’t tell me until afterwards. So it was just her and I meeting, a of a neutral area, a bit of a park. We had conversations, she was cool, she had dreadlocks at the time, she was cool, cool vibes, easy going. I’m all about the easy and chill vibes.

14:40
We were talking, laughing, having fun. then she’s like, Oh, Ryan’s coming over. said, Oh, cool. And my heart started beating. I’m like, Oh God, a guy. How scary. know, girls is okay, but dating guys, heart’s beating through my chest. And then Ryan came along and he’s this tall guy from New Zealand, Kiwi accent, tall, dark, handsome. Another cool dude like Jess, know, Jess and Ryan, they compliment each other very well.

15:04
very chill, very relaxed, very conversational, very open. But I didn’t find it. The funny thing is I didn’t find out till later on that Jess and Ryan had this plan. So if the sorry dating didn’t go well on our first meet and greet, Jess was, you know, we’re gonna have our pleasantries, have a bit of a chat and then Jess is gonna say, all right, see you, nice to meet you. Let’s keep in touch. But if she got good vibes and it felt successful, then she was gonna text Ryan and say, hey Ryan.

15:28
meet Joel, you know the vibes are good. So that’s when I met Ryan because vibes are good, everything’s organic and natural. but thankfully I didn’t know that till afterwards because if I had known that if he was to rock up you know that would be good vibes.

15:44
I would have been pooping my pants. So that was my first introduction of Ryan, which Jess later taught me that the plan was things went well. It’s a bit like an interview, but it really is a bit like dating, isn’t it? Yeah, it really is. Yeah. Yeah. And so then you got to know the family, time together. And yes. And then I suppose eventually headed to embryo transfer attempts. Yeah. Yeah. So we’ve got some.

16:07
socks down there, lucky duck socks. Jess is very, she’s very giving person obviously, she’s very giving person, but she’s very creative as well. Jess organized these socks, a bit of a personal joke. I had this duck hanging from my car mirror. So we had a lot of appointments, almost people might know, but if you don’t know, there’s a lot of appointments that you go to throughout the whole journey. So I pick her up in my car, had a little duck hanging from the rear view mirror. Can’t remember exactly how it came up and like, oh yeah, I’m a little good luck duck.

16:35
She’s like, Joel, that’s a penguin. I’m like, it’s a duck. It is very clearly a duck. Anyway, on closer inspection, was a penguin. It’s been hanging out in my car for years and I just thought it was a duck. So Jess thought it was hilarious. So she got these socks made, little good luck ducks with her face printed on them. So every appointment we had, every meeting, every, you know, anything to do with surrogacy or donor or appointments, we wore our good luck duck socks. Wonderful. And am I right in remembering, was it second embryo transfer that it worked?

17:04
Yeah that’s right, yep second embryo there. For Jess and I, transfer number two but for Mason, was attempt 24. So lucky number 24 overall but with Jess, lucky number two. Wow that is determination dad, he’s a very wanted young lad. Yeah absolutely, absolutely.

17:24
And then we’ll move through these photos. So then you get to start to celebrate some of the milestones about scans and heartbeats and things like that. Yeah. Like, again, another cliche, you know, people always say waiting is the hardest, but I didn’t realize in pregnancy, there’s so many windows of waiting, you know, whether it’s the transfer, whether it’s the embryo, we’ll go back to whether the embryo thaws, we’re even back again, whether you even get embryos from your egg collection and fertilization to thawing, to transfer.

17:53
to then, I think it’s the 10 days after transfer, I forget the acronym, the levels. yeah, the HCGs. Once that was given the all clear and the numbers rise, then it’s the scans. And then the next one was meant to be the, I think it was like a poll or something, a scan where you get a heartbeat. And the first one, we didn’t get a heartbeat. And in my head, I prepared myself that I’m like,

18:14
I’ve had a lot of false hope over the years, is, it’s okay, you know. And then just like, no, it’s fine, it’s still early, it’s still early. And then I’m like, ah, it’s okay. But then we went back however long after that first scan where we didn’t get the heartbeat and we got a blooming little heartbeat and that little yolk thing.

18:34
on the screen. So yeah, that was a tough window. Then the next, you know, they have a many weeks scan and then their harmony test and then the whatever, whatever. So it’s just all pockets of windows overthinking. And I’m sure I’ll it for the rest of my life. Just overthinking, overthinking, overthinking.

18:50
start to plan for it all. And then ultimately you did some media. Yeah, so from the very get go from when I first put my post on my Facebook page, I had a few different media outlets reach out and I don’t really like attention. I’m not really an extroverted person. I’m quite introverted, extroverted when I need to be, but I find it quite draining. So uh my journey has been my own, which I explained earlier. It wasn’t, you know, I had a bit of a barrier that I had to overcome to make my

19:18
story public when I shared my story. When I did share my story, don’t think Jess even knows this, but I got contacted for maybe three or four different news agencies around Australia. And rudely, I just ignored them. I didn’t respond. I wasn’t in that headspace to engage in that conversation around having interviews, mainly to do with the WA law reform. But a lot of it was just my journey had been getting some traction. It even made Apple News, which is crazy. um

19:47
And so initially I didn’t, didn’t respond to any of the requests. then it wasn’t until I can actually remember how it came about. ABC reached out and I’m Bernard and know, Jess being the positive potato that she is, she spoke reason to me and, um, encouraged me and inspired me. And I thought, well, if she can do it, she’s happy to share her story. I’m happy to share my story. So agreed to do the story with ABC. Didn’t give me any time to think didn’t give us any time to back out. I think it was the Wednesday we actually spoke and.

20:17
was it Thursday or the Friday we did our first interview and photo shoot at Jess’s and like, Oh, let’s do it in two weeks. And the lady’s like, no, no, we’ll do it straight away. Yeah.

20:27
Yeah well yeah well done for doing some media and raising awareness and normalizing you know new ways to make a family. I think ultimately it might have been those articles that drew my attention to you guys and I found you guys on social media and connected with you both so that was that was great for me. Yeah. And so then ultimately now we’re sharing some photos here of Jess being pregnant and I love these photos because they’re taken probably monthly in the same outfit and so you can see the growing bump and these would be fantastic photos to look back as Mason gets older too for him to see.

20:57
I grew in her tummy. Yeah, this was a surprise. I didn’t know Jess did this. wasn’t until after Mason was born that she shared these photos with me and I thought it was kind of special because it was one less thing that I was thinking about and seeing the photos, I’m just looking at them now, seeing the photos when she shared them, it made me realize how much not only I enjoyed the journey but how much, look at that smile, like how much Jess enjoyed the journey. That’s pretty special that she made the effort not only to grow someone else’s baby.

21:25
but to immortalize the memory. And not all of it was smooth sailing for Jess. She was quite sick throughout the pregnancy, but sometimes you’ve got to plaster that smile on which she’s done. And I think that it’s a beautiful sequence that she captured there. So, very special. And sometimes for surrogates, that might be the last time they’re pregnant. And so sometimes to capture your body and the changes and…

21:47
and the growing belly is quite a significant thing for surrogates to honor themselves in their journey as well. But yes, as she’s typed in chat too, it was a surprise for you. So yeah, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. And then we move through the photos and we come to the day of birth. And we heard a bit about that in Jess’s webinar the other week. But what do you look and feel when you look back at these photos of the day your son was born? I feel like it was this morning and I feel like was 100 years ago. There’s push and pull. It was pretty, yeah.

22:15
bloody special for me. was a long, a long pregnancy, a very long labor for Jess. Um, lot of her previous births had been quite quick in streamline. Um, so I think Jess had this mentality that this birth, the labor was going to be quick streamline, but it was about 12 hours in the end, very quick active labor at the end, but a very slow labor throughout the day. So, you know, I was fine. was bouncing on a ball. I was in the cafeteria. I was napping on the couch. Um, I was living my best life, but Jess was a bit uncomfortable.

22:45
But it was a surreal experience having been allowed in the room. You know, thank you so much, just for letting me be in the room to experience that moment. That’s something that I’ll cherish, cherish forever. But also, I’m not sure if Jess mentioned it last fortnight, but I delivered Mason, which was incredible. So just the trains coming, the trains coming, the trains coming. I think that’s a sign of how your friendship can grow in surrogacy that two people that started off as strangers.

23:13
oh Sometimes IPs wonder, do we get to be in the room at birth? And yes is the absolute answer. Because for the surrogate, that’s the moment that you become parent, a parent or parents, and we help to make that happen. And so for us to see that moment, that is the part of the payment for a surrogate. That’s powerful. And so yes, for you to be there and, you know, be there as your son is birthed. What a powerful thing. As a person for you to witness, but as your friendship has…

23:38
done together. Very powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very beautiful moment. So got to, the head was quite slow, got the head out and then the rest came out like a fish. So you caught him and then handed him to Jess. Yeah. then cut the cord. Yes. And then you spent a day or two together in the hospital. Initially with us, I guess the arrangement through Legally and the Long-Session Hospital, we had our own rooms, but then ultimately

24:05
the day of we ended up, they said that, know, circumstances have changed, is it okay if we have the same room? And we’re like, absolutely. So we had, Mason had joined us, so we were in hospital for maybe four or five days to begin with. And after day one, the nurse, fun lady she was, she ended up offering, you know, separate rooms and we’re like, no, no, no, no, we are more than happy. This is, you know, this is perfect. This is perfect. Oh my God, so perfect. Just having so many children.

24:32
having all that experience and knowledge to draw from, me being a single first time dad, it was overwhelming with Jess and her knowledge and support, but I couldn’t imagine not having her in the room with me. So yeah, just nice day in the room for maybe four or five days. And then Jess came back to my house for two weeks to rest and recover. And Ryan was a champion and looked after his tribe backbone. And then we ended up a few more days in a different hospital.

25:01
in the special care unit because Mason’s jaw just came back. So we spent a few more days in hospital together. That was actually, that was really challenging because the hospital, different hospital, born in Launceston, this one’s in Burnie, the middle photo. They wouldn’t let Jess and I in together because at this stage legal hadn’t gone because…

25:19
baby was still in Jess and Ryan’s name on the birth certificate. So it was either just me or just Jess. And, you know, I was quite upset about it. And, you know, Jess was uh my soothing soul at that time. And I ended up getting escalated to four different levels. And ultimately they, they let us both in because Jess was breastfeeding and obviously supplying one obviously, but Jess was breastfeeding and supplying milk as well. grateful that someone higher up saw some reason in the situation. They let Jess and I.

25:48
in the special care unit together uh with Mason for a few days. But yeah, I forgot about that, but that was quite an emotional time for me hearing people say, no, Jess is

25:58
Jess is the parent and then me saying but I’m actually a single parent and then they’re like well you pick and choose one or the other. Wow. And that was tricky. Yes. Hopefully as time goes on and more surrogacy gets done in Australia we won’t have to fight so many battles here. Yeah because I actually I asked Bernie to call on Cessna because I just assumed that they were all affiliated with each other but each hospital has their own different policies procedures but they just don’t speak to each other so in my mind I didn’t foresee an issue you know going to a different hospital but

26:28
turns out there is because everything in the legal arrangement is all with that one hospital. Sorry, I’m waffling. No, it’s really great stories to hear for people listening that some of the things to be prepared for that still happen in Australia, because we’re partly educating hospital staff as to how surrogacy works, because often they don’t come across much. And so some photos here, Jess breastfeeding.

26:50
as you had mentioned and we hear from her webinar how she pumped milk. And then I suppose once um you’re out of hospital and those visits, you had some beautiful newborn photos done here and that’s what we’re looking at here. That’s a pretty special thing to do and I think some of these photos are also with your friends that you had mentioned from primary school. So yeah, this was uh some beautiful photos.

27:09
Do you look back on these with particular memories? do, yeah. So photos is actually a good point. I wish I did more in the birth. I’ve got photos of the actual birth of my phone, but I wish we, and I know Jess would have been all for it she probably even said that she wanted it at some stage, but either it didn’t sink in or I just didn’t keep it at the forefront of my mind. If I could do it again, I’d have a birth photographer there. And this is something that Jess encouraged doing, a newborn photo shoot. Yes. Me being a loser that I am, I was more than happy just using my phone for photos.

27:38
I ended up getting this photo shoot done when Mason was two weeks old and looking back, I am so grateful that Jess talked some sense into me and I think she organized the photo shoot and yeah, and that’s Vanessa on the left. She was my egg donor and that’s her daughter on the left, Audrey. She was born, almost one actually, she’s 30th of December. And so that, very special photo with Vanessa, Mason and Audrey. And then on the right was me in the middle and.

28:07
Yeah, the team that make the dream happen is just…

28:09
behind and Vanessa in front. I think that’s really special when IPs include the surrogate and or egg donor in these newborn photo shoots because as you say it’s the team of people that came together to make his to bring him into this world. Absolutely. And then life goes on and so we’ve got some photos to finish up with friends and family but also here with your puppy dog that was a big part of your life for many years. Yeah, that’s Archie. Mason adored Archie. She unfortunately passed away a week or two ago. are pretty special things. Pets in children

28:39
are pretty special things and yeah just beautiful. And then some of these photos are being a single dad sometimes you have to take a lot of selfies or sometimes you have ask other people to take them or sometimes on a plane the person sitting next to you takes a photo of you and Mason sleeping hey? Without even knowing yeah yeah I’m also an exchange host parent so over the last couple of years I’ve hosted lots of students and this year I’ve hosted seven students.

29:06
So every weekend or every other weekend go out and do things uh with students. yeah, Mason gets to come along for the ride. So that was cradle mountain on the left, cradle mountain on the left. uh Missy Higgins in the middle there. He was three weeks old, I rang up the child health nurse for my kid.

29:21
can he go to this concert? I’ve got some baby earmuffs and it’s outdoors and whatever, whatever. And they’re like, yeah, if you go to the supermarket, if you go to Bunnings, if you go to parks, you know, what’s the difference really from a music concert? know, as long as you keep him warm, earmuffs on his head, he’ll be fine. And then, yeah, the other one was off to WA. So we’ve done a few trips when he was eight weeks old. We went to Melbourne for a couple of weeks. And then when he six months, we went to WA for a couple of weeks. That’s great, getting out and about. Yeah, yeah. Feeding pigs on that first photo on the left there.

29:50
went to a vineyard, that’s not wine, that’s just a water, a water bottle in the middle there. Reliquary in La Trobe, the Santa’s chair. And then to finish up, he’s a grandson and a nephew and a cousin for people here. So that’s photos here of people in your life? Yeah, that’s my family in WA, closest friends in WA.

30:12
It’s funny you include that one on the right actually. Mason convinced us having a girl and being a teacher it’s really tricky to find a name that doesn’t remind you of some lovely character. We’ve taught every name. Yeah, yeah. So I was fortunate enough years ago to look teaching a student, Macy, for grade three and then I looked at her total grade four. Ripper of a kid. She’s the kid that you could clone and have 30 of in the classroom. Yes.

30:40
So commenced with having a girl, but it didn’t happen. Ultimately ended up with the name Mason, the male version of Macy. And in WA that’s Macy’s parents. Aaron and Lauren holding Mason with the fan on him. So it’s cool that you put that photo in because they’re the reason, their daughter is the reason that Mason has his name. excellent. Yes. just, of all the photos you sent me, I put them in. I wasn’t exactly sure who was connected. That’s Macy. That’s Macy on the right, holding the bottle.

31:07
So I didn’t tell you that, that’s, that’s who Mason was named after. That’s Yeah. And obviously Jess getting lots of hugs and kisses. And so sometimes people wonder, Oh, do you still catch up with the surrogate, you know, down the track? And so here’s an example of, yeah, having a cuddle. Yeah. It wasn’t until people talk that I didn’t, I actually realized that, you know, it’s not all the fairy tale endings for, for, you know, some relationships or partners agreements, whatever you want to

31:37
them. But in my head it was never a non-negotiable. Jess was always going to be Auntie, Ryan, Uncle, their kids, cousins if that’s what they wanted to be referred to. relationships take work, relationships take effort.

31:52
And I think if someone’s going to graciously give you a, like such a selfless gift of carrying a child and birthing a child for you, why wouldn’t you find tooth and nail for that relationship? So yeah, Jess and I, sorry, I’m waffling. Jess and I are very fortunate, I’m very fortunate that we’ve got a great relationship.

32:09
Great. Yeah, another one of Macy and Audrey when he was quite young. Macy and Audrey again. Macy and Audrey, yeah, all of those are Macy and Audrey and that’s me and Vanessa. And I put them in to show that and so that’s you continuing contact with the egg donor and her family who are friends and then photos to finish up with you being a dad, hey? Yeah, best gift ever. I can’t imagine and I can’t remember a life before being a dad. It’s worth the tears, it’s worth the struggle, it’s worth the challenges.

32:36
worth everything. Keep on going, keep on going. Well that is well said. To keep on going, it is worth it. It’s a long journey to get there. um Financially, emotionally, periodically in terms of how long it has taken. So Joel, is there anything else there that we haven’t covered that looking at those photos has reminded you of the journey that you wanted to mention? No, the one that sprang to mind was the photographer. Pay to the photographers, yes, they’re bloody expensive.

33:00
But at the end the day, memories, beautiful memories in your mind, yes, but also beautiful memories you can put on a wall. Pay for the photographer, get the photographer. I love that. And it’s the type of thing that people for their weddings pay for photographers. Yeah, yeah. And so it’s a similar type of thing. And ultimately, we sometimes say that’s often the gift to the surrogate because she’s so engrossed in labor and birth that she’s not necessarily paying attention to everything that’s going on. And to be able to look back at the photos of the expression on other people’s faces as well, that’s really powerful.

33:30
heard it to see what she’s done. even the photos that you’ve got that midwives perhaps took on phones, even those would be really precious. But that’s good advice. Yep. Pay for the photographer. I feel like I should do Jess an honor and ask the question that I think Jess would like me to ask you that when Jess called to tell you that she was in labor, is there a little funny story you want to reminisce or pass on that one? I’ve forgotten about it. Well, I tell myself I’ve forgotten about it.

33:58
I may have or may not have immediately put her on hold for three minutes. She’s like, Joel, I’m going into labor. Didn’t even say anything to put her on hold. And I just processed. didn’t, like, I never knew that if I was a fighter, a flight or a freeze person, but it turns out I’m a freeze person. I am just overwhelming WTF. So I put her on hold and just, yeah, just took a moment, took a moment. And then.

34:24
Hey, did you just put me on hold? I can understand that. For my team, what I did is I called them, but then with husband Glenn’s phone at the time, I filmed myself calling them. We weren’t induced or anything. So it was just, they never knew when it was going to happen. So I actually think I made a point of calling them every day in the lead up just so that they never knew which phone call was going to be the one. And so then that phone call, I said, Hey, go ahead and get, are you ready to have a baby? they’re like, uh, uh, uh, uh.

34:53
I’ll send you the video of it happening. I look forward to it. Yeah it’s like everything, you know it’s not unexpected because you’ve planned for it but then when it’s actually happening it’s like holy heck what do we do? Yeah absolutely. Sorry Jess, I apologize. But she’s got a great story to tell from it so you know. She does and she doesn’t let me forget it so she’s always gonna have that card to hold above my head. She’s got some mileage out of that one my friend. Absolutely, yeah, frequent flyer.

35:23
I guess over the last many years of you having done surrogacy, you’ve probably talked to many other people about surrogacy. Is there any bits of advice that you find yourself regularly giving people if they ask about, where do we start or advice for how to navigate it? Every journey is different.

35:39
I do appreciate that. And though I was fortunate enough to have four surrogates before Jess, my advice would be be prepared to be vulnerable. I know people don’t always like sharing things that are so deep and so personal. The nature of the beast is Australia has altruistic surrogacy, no commercial surrogacy. So if you’re willing to go overseas and fork out a shell ton of money, then you may be being entitled to a bit more.

36:03
privacy, but at the end of the day, to find that angel, that special person who will be willing to be a surrogate for you, it’s going to be hard. So be prepared to put yourself out there, be an onion, pull away those layers, learn a lot about yourself. Um, and ultimately people will support you, whether it’s through words, through conversation, through checking in, how’s your journey going? And then ultimately, um, we’ll support you through carrying a child for yourself. Put yourself out there, put your story out there, love yourself and.

36:33
Accept that this is the situation and for my personality that was the biggest thing for me. So my advice to other introverts, other people trying to find a surrogate is love yourself, put yourself out there, accept support in whatever way it comes. Hold on, I think that’s really well said for everybody there.

36:50
Believe that you’re worth it. Believe that you are worth becoming a parent and therefore it takes you to be vulnerable. And I’m assuming not only was it vulnerable in the beginning to, as you say, share your story, but there were probably many moments of vulnerability with Jess along the journey as well that you had to bear all. And then her being vulnerable back in terms of at birth and then.

37:08
navigating those first few days together. It’s ongoing vulnerability in some ways. Absolutely. We’re all growing together. Jess and I are growing. Ryan and I are growing. Mason and I are growing. We’re growing together as a unit. It’s a lifelong family. Yeah, we are a family. That’s the way Jess wants it.

37:26
hoping that’s why Ryan wants it. He stuck with me whether he wanted it not. Well, you’re a beautiful, modern family and it’s a testament as to how families can grow, not in Australia, but in the world. From my nine years in the community, I can say you guys have done surrogacy really well. You should be proud of yourselves. We’re really proud of you. You’re a great shining example of how well to do it. So well done team. Thank you. Well done, Jess. Thank you, Jess. My love for you is unconditional, always and forever.

37:53
There you have it folksy and to get to that point of having love between you from people that were strangers that’s really empowering for people who are at the beginning to hear wow this can be possible and deep lifelong friendship. thank you. Thank you for sharing this journey with us. You’re welcome. Thank you for having me. Thank you for sharing your time with me for this episode. If you’re finding these episodes helpful please share them with friends. If you’d like to see the images mentioned head to our YouTube channel for all of the recordings.

38:22
If you’re looking for more individualised support, consider joining SASS, Surrogacy Australia’s support service, so you can be connected with a mentor and also with me to help guide you on a journey. You might think of me as your Siri for surrogacy. Until next time, welcome to the village.