Episode 104 – Jessie – straight mum

Welcome to our podcast series with Surrogacy Australia. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen and in turn for helping us spread awareness and appreciation for surrogacy. I’m your host Anna McKie and these recordings are from a regular webinar series that I run. You can find upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org. During the one hour webinars, I will walk you through the surrogacy process in Australia and you can type in questions for us to answer. My co-hosts have all done surrogacy in Australia

00:44
and they alternate between surrogates, gay dads, and straight moms. This episode is one from the archives, recorded in October 2022, and features Jessie. Jessie and Andrew became parents through surrogacy in March 2020. Their son Arlo was carried and birthed by Susan, who was previously a stranger and is now a lifelong friend. Jessie is a SASS parent mentor and has helped many IPs at the beginning of their journey.

01:10
It was lovely to take this trip down memory lane in this episode with Jessie. She shared a beautiful way of looking at surrogate babies, that in comparison to the way the majority of children are created, a woman and a man, and their two hearts coming together to create life, their son Arlo had four hearts that came together and loved him into this world. Jessie, her husband Andrew, surrogate Suze, and her husband Lawrence or Loz.

01:35
Jessie also induced lactation and she was able to directly feed Arlo. If you’d like to hear from three other mums about inducing lactation, check out episode 50, which is a great resource. I hope you enjoy this episode.

01:48
So we’re going to be joined by Jessie now and we’re going to go through some photos of her surrogacy journey and to hear what her happily ever after looks like as well. So Jessie, this first photo that we’ve got here, tell us who’s in this photo. There’s myself and my husband. So we’re on the right hand side and Susan and Laurence. So sorry getting her husband. Wonderful.

02:10
And was this taken sometime during Suru dating? Yeah, yeah was. It would have been probably taken I think after our night out. We went to dinner and went back to their place I think. I think from memory. Yeah. Cool. Now I know the next photo is birth so perhaps we should just do a little intro. So you’re in Brisbane and Susan and Loz, they’re up there near U2? Yes, yes they are. At the time we met they were living on the north side of Brisbane but still moved further north, still on the same side of Brisbane. Yep. Wonderful.

02:36
previously the people that you didn’t know. And then eventually you got to this point with them. That’s right. Yes. Tell us about this photo, Jessie. Well, that was the day Allo was born. It still gets me. Yeah. So that was Allo’s birth. We chose to actually do it through the public system. Well, after discussion again, because Susan and Oz were moving further north, Susan had been a surrogate previously and

03:01
And she was going to a hospital that was on the other side of town. just for convenience, we wanted to choose a hospital that was close to us both. And we chose a public hospital, which is in Radcliffe where we are living. The pregnancy was through the public hospital here in Radcliffe.

03:17
And so clearly, you know, sometimes when people are brand new and they wonder, oh, you know, are you in the room at birth? this is that you were in the room during labour and birth and how did all that? Yeah. So we were lucky enough, again, this was taken a week before COVID got crazy. Yes. March 2020. we were really lucky. Yeah. We’re really lucky that we were able to be, all four of us were in the room and then we had our photographer as well. Again, and we lucked out too that we, in the public hospital that we had.

03:42
rooms next to each other. So Susan could have her own room and we, Andrew and I and Arlo could have our room right next door so we could visit. I felt really lucky given what happened pretty bit then.

03:53
went on to happen with COVID that week or so, or take, could have changed the situation potentially, but yeah, so we’re all there for the birth and it was, yeah, no words. was just, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I know I’ve seen, cause there’s a slideshow of the photos from your birth too. Yeah, video, was the very powerful images of you holding Arlo for the first time, what was that like? Oh, it just felt like a part of my heart opened. It was just, it wasn’t,

04:21
Yeah, I think you’re right in saying relief, but I think it was, I think it just felt more than that. Like we, we had, we, the four of us had such a bond. Like I, I say that, you know, babies are born and how lucky they’ve got two hearts to bring them into the world. was lucky enough to have four hearts that loved him into the world. Beautiful story for him to know. Yeah. And he sees our photographer has then gone on. We did some photo sessions again with all of us.

04:48
when Arlo I think was four months old and then we’ve done. But Bianca, we’ve got the photos up in the lounge room, even in the dining room. And so Arlo’s seen them and sees those photos of his birth and is really familiar. it’s almost like he sees them and he knows that’s his story like just from the beginning. Yeah. That’s wonderful. And that’s the way for it to be, isn’t it? That’s best way to keep the child there. So then you stayed in hospital for a little bit and then you each go home. Yeah.

05:16
We stayed in for two days. Sue’s could leave, I think Sue’s left that night the next morning and then we left the day after. So though she left, she came back for, cause she had to come back for us to leave altogether.

05:28
But yeah. And so there are slight variations that can happen with hospital discharge and stuff. But I think that’s a pretty good standard model to stay in hospital in rooms next to each other for the first night then. And then obviously, you you’re catching up in those first few weeks, you know, post-birth quite a bit. But that’s like that first car ride home where you guys have got your newborn baby. Oh was just like, I was just like, oh my God, I just didn’t, I was just like, I think we stopped a few times too to make sure it was OK. And we’re like, we live like 10, 15 minutes

05:58
away from the hospital but I still might have used it like, is he okay? Yes and now Suze has looked after him you know for those months and now you’re on aren’t you? And then life goes on doesn’t it and so then this is the photo shoot that you’re Yeah that’s right.

06:15
And so how old was Arlo? I think he was four months, three months, four months. Oh, I remember. I know, right? Yeah. And interesting in COVID times too, to be able to in 2020 to get that together, would hence an outdoor, you know. Yeah. I think that’s right. I want to know you’re saying that. I think that was right.

06:32
I think it was four, five months. I actually can’t remember how we swung that actually now that you say that, but I think because it was outdoor and we almost family really in some ways. Yeah. Now you say that I’m like, I’m trying to work out now, think of the details around it and why we had, and maybe we were just cheeky. I don’t know. Now I, now I can’t remember. I’ve got you thinking we’ll have to message after it and work that out.

06:56
And that, you know, I know that set of photos is a beautiful set too, because you’ve got a combination of each person with Arlo too and him being alert enough to be interested in everybody. Yeah. Yeah. And there was a really beautiful, there’s like Bianca did an amazing, she always does an amazing job with the photos, but there was a really lovely photo of even with Suze and Arlo giving Suze a kiss and just, it was just really precious moments that were captured and then just keepsakes, yeah, to be able to have. Yeah. And I’d imagine those as keepsakes.

07:25
for Sue’s too that they need. Yeah, we got a bunch of them framed, especially, or framed or put them on bamboo boards or whatever to gift to her to have. Yeah. Because I think it’s important for surrogates, isn’t it, to see the family that they’ve helped create. So photos and to watch him grow up and things. Yeah. And we’re often sharing, like again, we, like you said, we may not see each other in person very often, but we still have our Facebook group and we’re often just putting random photos of what Arlo’s doing now.

07:51
just photos, know, just doing updates that way. Yeah, lovely. Yeah, so that you see it still connected in that way.

07:57
Yeah, exactly right. Beautiful. This is your little boy, hey, grown up. Yeah, I think now he would have just been over two when these were taken. Look at that hair on the trampoline. I know, my sister took that. Yeah, his auntie took that photo of him when he’s jumping on the trampoline with the static head. Yeah, it’s really cute. And the middle one is something we do, we call it an Arlo sandwich. So it’s a thing that we do. When you’re kisses from mum and dad.

08:27
B
08:50
We’ll come back to that in terms of how you got here. then any photos here, this was a catch up? Yeah, a recent one. think just only maybe a couple of months ago, we went to a strawberry farm. So we all went to a cafe and there was a lovely playground. And so we all just had a catch up, had coffee and he had a baby chino and ate lots of strawberries and played on the playground.

09:09
Yeah, And yeah, holding hands with Sue’s too. that’s, know, a to capture. Yeah, yeah. It’s beautiful. it was just it was it came easy to like it’s just yeah, we, their auntie and uncle, like that’s sort of the what we use like their family. Yeah, there. That’s great. Yeah. Well.

09:26
There’s some beautiful photos there. guess take us back to, you mentioned, you know, obviously being eternally grateful. So what brought you to surrogacy in the first place, Jessie? Why did you need a surrogate? And then how did you meet Susan Laws? It was close to a nine year journey for us. We did a lot of fertility treatments. In the end, I ended up having to have a hysterectomy and yeah, that was the reason why I…

09:46
I was able to create, we luckily, we were able to create our own embryos. So Arlo is Andrew and I, um, and Sue’s carried him. So we didn’t need an egg donor. Um, but that was definitely still on the cards as I was creating embryos because of my age. Yeah. embryos did you create and how many transfers did you take? Well, we created eight embryos and one transfer. So I know, I know. So it’s funny cause we weren’t expecting it. Cause again, Susan’s previous, sorry, she had one transfer, one pregnancy and we were.

10:16
just not expecting the odds of it. yeah, so yeah. Great. And so then, you know, as we said, there were strangers beforehand. So I guess you probably shared with your friends and family that they knew you’d had a hysterectomy.

10:28
Um, yeah. So then they knew that was your path, but then you also joined the Australian surrogacy community. Yeah. Well, the, um, the hysterectomy came actually after we met them because we were, um, for me, I had a lot of issues with my uterus and fibroids and so we were still doing, we were, when we met, we were still creating embryos. And so that was good as well, cause we did, we did a bit of surrogating. So we met through the Facebook group. There was a catch up happening on the other side of town again, we’re both from the north side of Brisbane and.

10:58
And Susan had put in just a comment, anyone from the Northside going to the catch up and we are, was just like, we are. And she found us at the catch up. again, we spent an hour and a half, think maybe hour and a half, maybe closer to two hours just chatting really easily and effortlessly.

11:14
And then that was after that catch up. she asked if we would like to, like to meet up again and meet her husband and it started from that. So yeah, it was. And we, remember walking away from that catch up just, I must like, just, mean, it just, happened. Not that we were trying to have our hopes or anything like.

11:34
building a hopes up or anything like that. But I just remember again, it is like that. Like Susan then texted us about catching up and I’m like, oh, this could be really be happening. And we then met, I think we met at a coffee club and it might’ve been four or five hours we sat and chatted again easily like Andrew and like with the four of us just chat so easily and just, it felt like that, part of the relationship was really effortless. Like just happened really easily. Yeah. And I know that you’ve mentored, you know, lots of other people at the beginning. Is that sometimes?

12:02
the advice that you give others about it needs to be natural? I think so. think the connection, I think the connection needs to be there I feel because it plays such an important part of it like you mentioned in some of the information you’re sharing that trust and that relationship because again in Australia that’s really

12:18
why we wanted to find a surrogate in Australia because we wanted that relationship. We wanted to be a part of the journey. Like we were lucky enough because we were so close together, we were lucky enough to go to every appointment that was there, every scan or every hospital appointment. So we were really able to be a part of the journey. And it would be your pregnancy as well. Yeah.

12:40
Yeah, yeah, exactly right. And just, think I was really well versed with what it took to try to get pregnant, like how to try to get pregnant. But then when it came to birth, it was like, was where my education needed to come because I, like I said, I, I know all the ins and outs of trying to get pregnant. I just didn’t know what happened, what you had to do once you actually got pregnant. But, yeah, the relationship I think is the biggest thing that needs to happen. That connection you’re mentioning. Yeah.

13:06
On that, I’ll just mention to the attendees, know, if anybody’s got specific questions about that, please feel free to type them in. Get brave and type them in, but I’ve got plenty I can keep asking, Jess, so I can keep going ahead. Then when you mentioned about the birth education there, and so did that come for you as IPs? Did you have midwives that were helping prepare you to be parents and things as well, I actually don’t think so. I think that was something, information that we, like,

13:33
we found ourselves, I mean, no, guess so. At the hospital appointments, we were given education, like some education. I induced lactation and I actually found the hospital did start having a lactation consultant, but not someone that was really like experienced with that surrogacy, that kind of situation. So I found my own lactation consultant who had helped.

13:56
women induced lactation for surrogacy previously. I guess I was really lucky too, like Susan had completed her family. So she was a wealth of knowledge and she had done a surrogacy journey already too. And we found really lucky that, again, she was a wealth of knowledge. So I think that some of that came along with the journey, I think from multiple places maybe. Yeah.

14:15
For those listening, Jessie just sort of skimmed over that like it wasn’t much, but she induced lactation, is epic in itself. So for those who might not know that although her body hadn’t birthed the baby, she was able to produce milk. It’s quite a process to that point. And then it meant that you were able to feed Arlo, weren’t you? And I think that’s one of the powerful photos I can remember. Yeah, we had decided with birth that when Arlo was born, Arlo would go onto Susan’s chest, not skin to skin.

14:45
but go straight on to Sue’s. And so once Sue’s was ready, it ended up being that she handed Arlo to Andrew while I was getting ready to then have skin to skin and breastfeed him. Yeah. Wow. And that would have been a pretty special thing to breastfeed your little boy after waiting to bring him into this world. Yeah. I think some of the midwives, I think most of midwives were probably a little bit blown away by it a little bit too. Like you said, I have to stop and give myself credit sometimes, because I will be like, oh.

15:13
And some people will be like, oh my god, that’s amazing. I’m like, actually, yeah, you’re right. That is.

15:18
And I did a webinar a while ago with three other mums who induced lactation and that’s one of our recordings that we have. so that for anybody, I guess the women listening, if that’s a path that you’d like to do, there’s other people clearly like Jessie who have done it before that could talk to you about that if you have a specific need info about that. Adele has asked a question. How did you pick natural birth or a C-section or is that down to the surrogate and her choice? How did that work? Well, I think Sue’s had naturally birthed all her children and her previous, I’m sorry, baby,

15:48
So I think that was just a given. We did talk about in the case of a C-section needing to happen, but we were just all preparing for it to be a general birth.

15:59
And I think from my understanding of other women in the community, it is the surrogate’s choice because that’s bodily autonomy there and how that works in Australia. And again, from my data gathering, I think that the proportion of women that do a natural birth versus C-section in surrogacy pretty much matches the statistics for what it is among the normal birth in community.

16:19
quite sure. feel like it’s 60, 40 natural versus caesarian or something like that. So it’s still quite similar. Yes, we do appreciate that when you can have a caesarian, you can schedule in the date, right? So then that makes it easier for the IPs. But sometimes that’s part of the fun of in my team, certainly of waiting, you know, for the call. Yeah, boys, I think we’re on. So, but some teams have inductions too, so that you can plan. Yeah, we did induce when I remember just that little,

16:43
we went to an appointment once and they talked about it and just saying like, okay, let’s do it tomorrow or like, let’s do it. Like I think it was we can go tomorrow and we’re all like, hello, are we ready? Okay. And I think we went again, we went out to like caffeine. were all just, was like the room was sitting there just going, it’s happening tomorrow. that it’s like, yeah, it’s happening tomorrow. Were you about ready? Do you remember how many weeks along? I think we were, I think we were 40. Yeah, I think we were. Yeah. So, and that’s where I think, because I didn’t want her to go past that because of being an IVF.

17:13
Sometimes don’t they? They have worries about that. I know some surrogate teams that have gone beyond, but they do monitor bit more closely. Because they know exactly where I think it might be actually 39 and five maybe even. It might have just been just under. So, yeah, yeah. I think it was literally they were looking at the diary in the book of like when we could fit the induction in. Yeah. Good question Adele there. So Jesse, what other things do you classically, you know,

17:40
explain to people about surrogacy journeys in terms of years and worries for new people? think like you said like you’ve mentioned to to take your time or to know that it’s going to take time that I mean we met Susan we’re still creating embryos and there was talk of me having surgery because again the surgery for me met

17:59
meant access to my ovaries would be a lot easier. that was so like I did have my hysterectomy and then I had some more rounds of IVF and then had amazing egg collections because

18:11
previously the doctor had to go abdominally to my ovaries. so, so we were still again, this was blind by so we were still creating embryos. So I, I think to not be as not to not try to rush it maybe potentially is like to it’s going to take the time it’s going to take. But I think for me, I think I, I try to then say to enjoy every moment because I think I went through like I had eight or so years of just things failing like fail, fail, fail, fail. And so as soon as it almost seemed like as soon as that embryo thawed and we’re in the IVF clinic and

18:41
did exactly what it needed to do. He burst out of that and it just, it was like from then on it happened like almost like success. So it was just like, I would always sometimes wait for the bottom to fall out. think sometimes I would, I would worry again. I was like, Oh, like what’s gonna look. And cause I was, I must programmed for failure. So after so many years of medical hurdles, now something to go right. So, so smoothly.

19:05
Yeah, so I think think I think of hindsight so is a wonderful thing and you could go I wish I just probably didn’t stress as much but again How do you not stress about it? But I just to try to like enjoy the moments I mean we had a lot of we had a lot of really fun times through it all as well and Andrew and I really tried to be as much of a support to them both as we possibly could through the ways we You know, both needed the relationship is for me is so key That’s so important to have such a good relationship and connection and and I

19:35
Can you elaborate for us when you mentioned to be a support to Susan Lodz, I guess, particularly during the pregnancy, what types of things did you do for support? We would often cook the meals, so they both were working full time. So we would often cook them a bank of meals so they would have at least a few meals so they could come home and not have to worry about cooking. quite a few times we’d go over there and cook for them. Again, it would be a catch up and yeah, so we’d be cooking and then cleaning up for them.

20:02
Yeah, so that sort of thing. We’d offer doing sort of like cleaning and things like that, but it was something that Sue said she was happy to not have, but we were like,

20:11
Again, I did with some pampering things too. you know, being able to sort of give her a few pampering things too. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of surrogates quite independent in terms of having other people clean their house, isn’t it? They’re tricky women to navigate sometimes. So, cool. Yeah. So that’s sort of helping out and spending time together. Adele has a question here that says, was it scary or were you nervous about not being on the birth certificate from birth and how long did the parentage order take to come through for you? For me, it wasn’t a thing at all.

20:41
nervous at all. I had complete trust in the process and in Susan and was like it wasn’t a hard thing for us. We ended up doing a parentage order ourselves. So we, think we ended up, I know we went to court in October of 2020. So I’m trying to think of when we actually submitted the paperwork then because again with COVID it made it a bit different like it delays and everything into into court. So it’s the usual order that you apply for the first birth certificate it arrives and then once you’ve got that you either then

21:09
go back to your lawyers or start the process yourself. And then that might take a little time. I mean, every state can be different in South Australia. get a date. So we went to court for a few minutes in front of a judge. And then that gives permission after that court date for the new birth certificate to be drawn up with the two names. And then you apply for that. Then you can go and…

21:28
then you apply and get a copy of that. Well, in Queensland, it’s easy to get a copy of that. Yes. I think I wonder if, you know, I know for the guys I cared for, Matt and Brendan, that when they first learning about surrogacy, I think there was that initial concern. But then I wonder if once you meet surrogates and you talk to them about this fact about, they’re going to keep the baby. And most surrogates, you you look at their faces and you hear their expressions. The idea of having another child is like, oh, no, no, no, we are so done having our kids.

21:57
That’s why we’re here to be surrogates. I wonder if once you spend time with people and you get to know them and go, they really aren’t in this to have another kid. Maybe that puts people at ease because Susan’s kids were older by that point. Yeah. I think you, like you said, it’s a really long process to go to try to get another kid if you can easily get pregnant yourself. you said.

22:18
But then knowing the people makes, mean like that trust. So I think in case, you know, people were chatting to a new surrogate and you heard any talk about, you know, I would have had another kid, but my husband didn’t want to. That might be a bit of a red flag for me going, maybe you’re not.

22:33
And so I think that’s why it’s important to have some steps along the way where she chats to a GP, chats to other surrogates and really make sure is this the right time or not. So Adele, I hope that’s helpful in terms of thinking about getting that feel from that person about that. Jesse, when you talked before about how things did go pretty smoothly, but obviously you’d had lots of challenges yourself, but was there any particularly tough times in the surrogacy journey then that happened?

23:02
I think it mainly only maybe some of the challenges would be, mean, Sue’s did have a bit of, oh, it wasn’t just morning sickness. was all day sickness that would come. think my biggest challenge was being able to not be able to alleviate some things like that.

23:14
I guess that was my biggest struggle is like taking away from her and yeah, suffering a bit. Yeah. And not feeling like, she’s doing this for us. That’s not, not my fault. not like that, but it’s just being able to my empathy of just being able to how I could make it better for her or what I could do to like, like further support her and make a, you know, if that makes sense, like that was probably was a big challenge. I mean, we had, mean, we had a few times we’d have to, we did go up to the hospital through the pregnancy just to get things checked where if Susan’s aren’t feeling so right, but, and of course,

23:44
those little moments make you just go, okay, let’s let, you know, we’re in the right place. We’re in the right hands. um, but I think that was just my biggest challenge is being able to not, and I don’t think it’s a challenge. It was just, just wanting to, yeah, like I said, alleviate that if I could, how I could, how I couldn’t alleviate that. Yep.

24:03
It’s a fascinating dynamic, isn’t it? Doing surrogacy and somebody’s doing this for you. Yes, they signed up for it, but you want to help them and support them and it’s complex. Yeah, very good. Yeah, it is. Yeah. It’s not something that you rarely do with anybody else like any other friendship, isn’t it? What you go through, remember there. Yeah. So we’ll get to our last couple of questions. So Melissa has asked one. Could you please give us some idea of the things discussed in counselling sessions on your own and all together?

24:30
have to go through. Go back in my brain. think, well, all together, even on our own, like talking about… It’s the classic ones about like, I remember for us, was, what if the two intended parents died in a car accident? Oh, yes. While I was pregnant, that sort of thing. Oh, yes. Yeah, definitely. Sorry. Yes. And we did have to, we did. That’s right. So we did actually in the agreement, we did put down again, family members again, if we were to, if we were to die, who would then look after… Yes. Sorry. Yes.

24:56
A lot of our counsellor, I was going to say too, like she was also a genetic counsellor too, so we ended up talking out a lot about that kind of stuff and that which was really helpful because I didn’t really think about that kind of thing like we’re pregnant and what…

25:08
what like tests or things we were going to do through the pregnancy, depending on just to check, you know, check certain things along the way. And there was some tests that we didn’t opt to do because I kind of, after discussing it as a team, we were just, again, if I was pregnant, I wouldn’t terminate. So if like Down’s syndrome or anything like that, I wouldn’t terminate. we, and Sue’s was comfortable with that. So yeah, that those what tests to do type of thing. I guess for some teams it might be about if the surrogate chooses not to have a test, but the IPs would have liked it to have it, how’s everybody going to feel about that?

25:38
So it’s about talking about through a lot of those things long before you’re pregnant, isn’t it? To see if you’ve got any differences and conflicts. That’s what needs to come up. Is there a lot about being challenged on it basically comes back to the surrogate and what she picks and how she wants to run this and how do the IPs feel about that? What do you mean? it like a lot of challenge? Well, in terms of, well, I guess it’s that balance between her bodily autonomy, but then also you’re making a baby as a team and how do we announce this to people and how

26:08
I don’t know, just that balance between the surrogate carrying the baby but doing it within a team. Yeah, I we did, I think we discussed, definitely discussed that pre as well and I think there was some of that discussion post as well like going forward, feeling bad, I’m like I’m having a blank on what we no, because it’s been years for us each, know, when you’re in it, you’re in it. Would I be right in saying that a good team like yourself who’s spent some time sorry dating, having catch-ups before counselling, you talk about all of this stuff beforehand and then there are lists

26:38
So there’s lists in our SaaS portal. If you’re in Facebook groups too, there’s lists and you can ask people for them. Did you then find having done a lot of that talking, you got to counseling and it wasn’t scary? Well, yes, I was going to say, I mean, again, we had the advantage of Sue’s and because she had birthed in 2017 and so we were pregnant in like 2019. we had a lot of that, like it seemed like a lot of that conversation came up really easily, I think maybe instigated from.

27:06
Susan or talking a little bit about that. think the Gen X sort of things in termination and think, and like little details like that came up in counseling with Narelle. that was, um, and that was good though, cause it was, it was things that again, like that information of like what happens once you are pregnant and taking a baby to term, like that kind of education. Yeah. So I think, having Sue’s being experienced, she, she knew what was expected. She kind of knew what she wanted out of this journey. she, could be following some of her experience too then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you could go back in time and do anything,

27:36
differently. Is there anything from your journey or any part of it that you would do differently, Jessie? I think I’ll just go back to that, just not stressing so much. Or just I think I wish I could go back to past Jessie and just like, I think it took us, it took me a good couple of months into the pregnancy to sort of try to ease into a little bit and not not worry. But

27:56
that would be it because I really, we again, feel so grateful for Susan and Laurence and it just felt like so serendipitous that we met them and we have Arlo and it’s exactly how Arlo was meant to come into the world. I just, yeah, it just feels right. That’s how he was meant to come here. yeah. That’s beautiful. And I love that. I love that story of that four hearts bringing him into this world too.

28:23
just because traditionally you know take two people, one you don’t have four. Yeah like how lucky is he? He has four people, four hearts and we all love him like we all loved, we all brought, we all had this love to bring this little beautiful boy into the world. It’s just when you think of it like that it’s almost like wow.

28:42
It’s massive. Yeah. Better than traditional. I always go, look what we did over here. Like, look at this. It does. It does feel special. Like I think of it like that. I think it’s special. It’s, it’s a big mountain. You feel like you’ve got to climb, but, um, but gosh, what a gift on the end. Like, I like, I still, I still like it even today in the car looking at them, just going, oh my God, I’ve got a little baby boy sleeping in my car back here. Wonderful. And I think that’s the way it should be. And I, you know, we should all be grateful and, and

29:11
maybe sometimes the bigger the mountain is to climb when you have your little boy at end of it it’s like wow what we did today so that’s wonderful I’m hoping everybody that’s listening here tonight has found that powerful and something that you can relate to yes that yes

29:27
Thank you for listening to this episode. see the beautiful images mentioned, head to our YouTube channel to watch the webinar recording. If you’re looking for more support and potentially connecting with a surrogate or intended parents, head to our website, surrogacyaustralia.org, to check out the resources and to learn more about SASS. Please subscribe to this podcast if you found it valuable and share it with someone so they too can benefit from this conversation. Until next time, welcome to the village.