Episode 166 – Kate – mum

00:14
Welcome to Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series. I’m your host Anna McKie and my aim is to raise the level of awareness of surrogacy through these conversations. This podcast is a recording from a webinar that I host and you can find more details about those and upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org. The webinars are free, go for an hour and we’ll take you through how surrogacy works in Australia. You can ask questions, typing them in anonymously if you prefer.

00:41
and you hear from a co-host who has navigated surrogacy in Australia, either a surrogate, a gay dad, or a straight mum. This episode featuring mum through surrogacy, Kate, is one from the archives and was recorded in February 2022. Kate and Cole became parents to their daughter, Alison, in June 2020. Alison was carried by their surrogate, Jodie, who already had a friendship with Kate before surrogacy.

01:08
They navigated COVID towards the end of their pregnancy, so it was quite a journey. Both Kate and Jodie have been my SASS mentors over in Perth, and they have helped many new IPs and surrogates at the start of their journey. You can hear from Kate surrogate Jodie in the previous episode, number 165. I hope you enjoy this episode.

01:29
So Kate, obviously a long road in surrogacy to get to the point of being pregnant with a surrogate. Perhaps we’ll recap on that at the end. But this photo here, was this a maternity photo shoot? It was. It was maternity photo shoot with Jodie and Jodie’s partner and Jodie’s son.

01:44
He’s a little toddler at the time. Was he under two? Yeah. Yes. And sometimes kids, you know, people say, oh, how are the kids going to cope? But I’m pretty sure kids are pretty resilient, right? Yeah. And he was a little young to understand sort of the concept really. So he just knew that there was a baby growing in his mom’s tummy and it was Cation Cole’s baby. Easy, right? Simple as it needs to be. And then, and so, yeah, beautiful photo here with lots of hands.

02:11
Did you guys plan these photos or the photographer directed you? We had a couple of ideas of what we wanted and she also had a few ideas herself. So it was sort of a combination effort. The photographer is a good friend of ours as well. Beautiful. Such a unique opportunity too for the photographer. Yeah. how do you get the idea of surrogacy in a photo? I often find a bit of a challenge because otherwise it just looks like a normal pregnant woman.

02:37
And then what was the event here in this photo? This was our baby shower. It was the first of three of them because because of COVID we had a we had numbers of restrictions. Yes. This was a baby shower with just a few of our girlfriends. Lovely. And then I had another one with my family and another one with Cole’s family.

02:57
Of course, Alison was born June 2020. So this is like the first year of COVID too. Wow. Try all blazers. And here’s me thinking 2020, that was just going to be the year, but no, it’s for surrogacy teams. It’s continued to be a theme. Yeah. Yeah. So then getting ready for birth here. So this is a planned caesarian day. It is. Yes. So this was the morning of we got there super early. Alison was born in the hospital that Joanie works at. So we sort of had, so that sort

03:24
special sort of treatment and we fortunately we were all allowed in the birthing room. I was going to ask that yes with restrictions was that that particular hospital you know or it just worked out that way? Well the original hospital we wanted to be in wouldn’t allow all of us so that’s why we changed hospitals to Jodie’s work. Right and that’s probably valuable for people to hear to go your plans might change you may even have to change hospitals.

03:48
Yeah, yeah, so we were very, very lucky because at one point it was just going to be Jodie and I at the birth and then fortunately we were allowed Jodie’s support and Jason and Cole. Absolutely, yes. Yeah, well that worked out very well for your turn. And yeah, can you remember the feeling in this moment? Just belief, really. That here she was and then yeah, she was ours. Yes, healthy, alive, in your arms. Wow.

04:14
just going wow. Yeah that sort of real wow moment there and there’s Jodie what a smile hey. Yeah unfortunately poor Jodie had blood pressure issues as well so she unfortunately began to feel unwell and she was saying in hers that she um you know trying to look at us because we were sort of behind her she then got herself a quick neck so so yeah poor Jodie really went through the wringer.

04:37
of all the things that could happen in pregnancy. Yeah. But then with a crook neck, what trying to watch, you know, the parents become parents. Yeah. And get a sore neck because of that. So it’s funny in some ways, not at the time, I’m sure. And then this is in the hospital. It is. Yes. So that was Tyler meeting Alison and, you know, he loves her even now. Yes. Of course, a baby Ali. Baby Ali, I was going to say, is he got certain terminology he uses? Yeah. Yeah. And so I would like to comment on how

05:07
comfortable you are with Tyler in that left photo that you are a mum with your first child, your newborn in your arms, and then you’ve got a toddler sitting on your lap that you’re really comfortable with too. That shows this isn’t a stranger’s kid. Clearly you are your auntie to him. Yeah. And then for a while, you know, I was known as Auntie Kate to Tyler. So in the early days, it’s now just become Kate, but because that’s what happens when they become four year olds. That’s right. So there’s some beautiful photos here.

05:36
trusting. So then in the other photo there is Jodie and her son Tyler and how comfortable you are letting somebody else have your newborn with their big wobbly head. And I suppose that’s the trust that your team has. Yeah. And, you know, Jodie is, you know, Alison’s special auntie and will always be, you know,

05:54
massive part of her life. And I suppose you trusted her to carry and grow Alison’s. And she probably had more experience with Alison at that point than we did. Interesting yes and she’s had the baby before and she had her in her so yeah it’s a transition of that bond isn’t it? Yeah. And then this photo here what a view from your hospital hey? I know it’s a very good view so that is in Jodie’s room because you know Jodie working there she was sort of given the the suite shall we call it?

06:24
And how sweet. Yeah, but we also had the same view. We were very lucky that we had rooms next door to each other. So we could just come and go into each other’s room how we pleased. And if I needed a shower, Jodie would come and look after Alison and spend time with her. And we just sort of floated between.

06:42
rooms. And I reckon for brand new IPs listening, that’s probably a question that they didn’t know they had was how does the rooming arrangements work there? you had, so, because often they, IPs ask was the baby in your care from the beginning? Were you fully looking after baby? Yeah. So pretty much as soon as she left Jodie’s tummy, she was given to us and we were the parents. Yep. And so you were doing all the feeds and the nappy changes. Yeah. So I tried to breastfeed myself. So I tried to do induced lactation, which I unfortunately didn’t work.

07:11
Credit to you, I know how hard that is. So that’s a massive effort to do that. So well done for even giving it a go. Thanks. Yeah, I thought, you know, let’s give it a go and look, if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. And unfortunately it didn’t, but you know, she had a formula and yeah, you know, thrived. Good. She was a hungry girl.

07:28
Good. That’s good to hear. You don’t need any extra worries if they’re not feeding. Yeah. And so I guess then Jodie would come in for cuddles and often surrogates say good and when they create a fuss we hand them back. And then did you discharge from hospital at the same time or different times? Because Jodie had a caesarean, she stayed, I think it was one night longer than we did. So we were there four nights and Jodie was there five. Yep. So again, that’s another classic thing for newies listening that

07:55
sometimes discharge from hospital can happen at same times. And then I’m assuming, well, this is now fast forward to, this is the first birthday? It is, yes, that’s Alison’s first birthday. I would imagine that you would continue catch up. once you were discharged from hospital though, what was the frequency that you were catching up in that first month? Probably say every couple of weeks because we’ve been friends for over 10 years. So we sort just went back to our normal friendship and,

08:22
seeing each other probably more than we probably did in the past but still you know life does get in the way and you know it may go from two weeks to a month we may not see each other but we still we’re still in contact you know we still sort of you know messenger each other and and sort of send photos through every now and again so we still are we’re in contact but maybe not some physical contact.

08:43
Yes. And I find that it’s once the surrogacy project, it’s intense while you’re doing that together and there’s a lot of communication while you’re pregnant. And then you ease off back to other projects in life. And your project is being mum. Yes. Well, that’s a wonderful, you know, snapshot of your journey in photo form there.

09:02
Thank you for sharing that. So I’ll read our question out here. So my sister has offered to be a surrogate for my partner and me using his sperm and her egg in traditional surrogacy. Is this allowed in Australia? We’re a gay couple living in Queensland and my sister in New South Wales. So yes, traditional surrogacy is allowed. Yes, you still need to complete all the counseling and legal paperwork before aiming for pregnancy. You’re in Queensland, she’s in New South Wales. And so that should be fine. Even if she hasn’t had kids before, then she could still carry for you. So yes, that would be absolutely fine.

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head to our website for more information or join SASS and we can help guide you through that. You’re welcome to join SASS as a team that already knew each other. We’ll go back to Kate. Let’s take us back a bit further then. How did you come to surrogacy, Kate? How did you know that to become a mum you would need a surrogate? I was diagnosed with cervical cancer eight years ago and I had to have a hysterectomy. I was able to keep my ovaries so I was lucky in that regard. Yeah. Was that an unexpected health diagnosis? Very unexpected. So I had a pap smear that came back

10:00
abnormal and then had a cone biopsy which they do to take it away and unfortunately all of that was cancer. it happened very quickly so between sort of diagnosis and probably the hysterectomy was six to eight weeks.

10:15
Sorry, it happened very quickly. Your life changed. Yeah. Yes. Having had previous chats with you, were you partnered with Cole at the time? I met him six weeks before I was diagnosed. Wow, right? Yeah. What a whirlwind. And he’s still here eight years later. Still here. Wonderful. guess going through some enormous things like that as a couple, you know, really brings you together. Yeah, yeah. So that definitely shows that, you know, if he’s going to stick around for that, he’ll probably stick around.

10:41
He’s a keeper too. So you had shared that with your friends obviously that this, wow, I’ve got this diagnosis. And so then obviously having a hysterectomy, have no uterus to carry a baby. So it was something everybody knew. Pretty much, yeah, it happened. you know, I have a very good group of girlfriends and yeah, sort of we went through it pretty much all together sort of thing that they knew.

11:02
every step and sort of everything we’re going through so. And so then the time came then and because I’ve had on as co-host Jodie the surrogate and so I know of this journey too and so once Jodie had had her son and they were sort of one and done sort of family is that how the offer came? Yeah Jodie had mentioned before she even got pregnant with Tyler.

11:21
She said this is something I’d like to do but obviously in WA you need to have had a baby at work and completed your family before you can even be considered. Yeah she had Tyler and I think Tyler was maybe six or seven months old and she messaged and said okay let’s do this. Oh okay. so do you remember those feelings either at the beginning or at that point? Do remember how you were feeling? Yeah just trying to think that far back.

11:49
Cautiously optimistic? Yeah, yeah. Pretty much we sort just went, let’s just take this one step at a time. There are a lot of steps to go through that, you know, you may not sort of pass one step. Yeah, we just took it step by step sort of and to see how we, cause we had, we did have embryos on ice. Right. We were lucky that we were able to create embryos before we had a surrogate. So I actually wrote to the reproductive technology council.

12:15
Yes. And said, I’m not getting any younger. Can I create some embryos? And they said, yes. Good. So on a side comment, Kate, I know had a recent mentor session with a SASS team. I believe they are in a similar boat to trying to get permission to create that for fertility preservation, essentially. well done on winning those little battles. Yeah, because it pays to ask the question.

12:37
There’s some good advice for people listening in terms of clinics and lawyers and things you mean? Well, for WA, they said you can’t create embryos unless you’ve got a surrogate. So I sort of just asked the question, well, can we? So my fertility clinic created the letter, got all their bits and pieces and submitted it to the RTC and we were allowed. Good. Well, I hope more teams do this every time then they could just change that. That would be, you know.

13:01
I need to this to Surrogacy Australia’s to-do list of things to campaign for. I’d love to see in my lifetime, we have national laws for surrogacy. It’s just one set.

13:10
every state wouldn’t that be? It’s ridiculous how each state is different. Yes. So we’ll come back to your journey. We’ve got a question here, an anonymous question. So why do we need lawyers in surrogacy if the surrogate can keep the baby if they choose to? What would your answer Kate be about that? Do you see some advantage of having the legal steps there? It makes everything crystal clear. Even though it’s not enforceable, it makes you sit down and go through one thing is determination. That’s written into the legal agreement. What will happen

13:40
how many goes are you willing to do? That was in our legal agreement as well. Yeah, for me, even if it’s not enforceable, it just makes things crystal clear between you and your surrogate. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and for me too, there were some really good moments to pause and to go, oh, and to understand the enormity of what we’re doing here as four adults too. Anonymous, it’s absolutely okay to be worried at the beginning.

14:04
that a surrogate might want to keep the baby. Let me reassure you that in my five years in the community and the couple of hundred surrogates that I know, that’s not our motivation. Yes, we bond with the child that’s inside us and growing, but we never visualized the child in our house, in our arms. We visualized the child in our intended parents’ arms. One of the amazing counselor psychologists who specializes in surrogacy, Sarah Jane Jure, who’s in Melbourne, said, babies are gestated in the body and the mind.

14:33
I like that. And so the intended parents are growing the baby in their head. They’re growing the baby visualizing it in the nursery. A surrogate is not imagining the baby in her mind. Well, where it is, is over there with the parents. Yes, we grow the baby. The reasons for us wanting to keep the baby a null and void really, yes, legally we can, but also it means what we fear is that you can choose to not have the baby and to not

14:57
collect your baby and that we’re left with it and legally then it’s our responsibility. That’s really scary for us. We love this child, but we don’t want to raise it. And I guess the legals as well and the counseling, you talk through some of those scenarios, don’t you, about what would happen if the intended parents both die in a car accident while the surrogate is pregnant? Did you have a plan, Kate, for your team? What would happen and who might raise the child? We did. So yeah, we had my sister and brother-in-law. Yeah. Cause yeah, Jodie.

15:24
as she said from the beginning, it’s not my baby. absolutely. So you talk about all these things like what if the IP split up during pregnancy and things like that. For me, that was the impetus. the two dads, it would depend on.

15:36
the age of the two grandparents and what family situations were set up, but it made us go, okay, I need the mobile numbers of the two mums because then they need to help continue to support me in the pregnancy. Yeah, so it makes you think about all of those things, doesn’t it? And makes you think about the hard things that you probably haven’t even thought of yet. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, if the baby’s born with a deformity or something, what happens then? The hard questions are answered. Would you walk away then?

16:04
And that’s what happened with Baby Gummy back in Thailand many years ago. So Anonymous, I hope we’ve answered that. If we haven’t quite and you want us to answer a little bit more, please come back and type in another question. Happy to try and refine it for you. Kate, during the webinar I mentioned about on the birth certificate goes the surrogate’s name to start with. Now, obviously you had a friendship with Jodie beforehand, so you probably weren’t worried. But was, when you initially heard that her name goes on the birth certificate, was there a little bit of, oh, was there worry there? Not worry, it was more…

16:33
Oh, it’s another step we have to go through. Because I remember we went to one of the seminars, the Zarekki seminars, and they had a woman in Canada who their law had just changed that the surrogate was no longer listed on the birth certificate. It’s actually the

16:51
Intended parents from birth. Right. Yes. they’ve been lobbying for a while for that. Yes. I hear different countries at different stages of that. So that might be something that we move towards in Australia. If everyone’s in agreement and if at birth the surrogate says, yes, let’s do it from birth, that would be nice. Do you remember how many months along it was until you got the new birth certificate? Wasn’t long at all. We pretty much got it done pretty quickly.

17:14
What is quickly six weeks to six months somewhere in there? Yeah, it was definitely before she was six months because also I needed it to apply for paid parental leave. Yes, right. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Different states and stuff are tricky. So I’ll just add onto that for new listeners thing as well. Both the intended parents and well one intended parents, primary caregiver and the surrogate are both entitled to

17:36
paid parental leave. So that’s the government one, provided the surrogate or both parties meet the work test. And you’re also both entitled to maternity and paternity leave if your workplace has that built in. That’s probably the one thing in surrogacy that’s double dipping. That’s two people getting that money for one child. But hey, you’ve spent so much money on surrogacy, I say go for it. It is absolutely legal for that to happen. So Kate, did you get both sets? Yes. Good. Yeah. So, so yeah, Joanie took her parental leave and so did I. Good.

18:03
And so yes, so you have to apply for all of those things too. Can I ask, don’t know if it’s a dirty question to ask, how much it costs you, Kate? It costs roughly $60,000. $60,000. Yep. And that was two IVF rounds and three transfers. Gotcha. Yeah. So that’s to collect your eggs and turn them into embryos. Yep.

18:23
two rounds, would the IVF then, and then the embryo transfers, would that be about 30,000? Yeah. Yes. My team was 60,000, it’s the same like you, 30,000 on two egg collections, three transfers, and then just the counseling, the legals and that sort of stuff. So for those listening, if you’re interested in costs, my rough data gathering range is some teams do it for 35,000. Those teams probably live locally, like worked on the first embryo transfer, didn’t really have loss of wages or travel and accommodation. Whereas the teams up at the $90,000 range

18:53
probably teams that live interstate. So the IPs had to travel, accommodation, multiple embryo transfers, maybe loss of wages. And the average by my data is about 55 to 60,000. So it’s not cheap. Kate, I’m guessing you didn’t have all of that saved at the beginning? No, we had a little bit saved, but when we were new, we going down that path, we just kept putting a bit more in each page because we were working full time. what would you, and then your timeline, either including the IVF to birth site, how long did it take you to get to birth?

19:22
just over a year, I think, between our first IBF round. Because we did that probably a few months before Jodie offered. And then Jodie offered, and I think we were probably just under a year between starting the process and, I don’t know, just over a year. Yeah, so then a couple of months to complete the counseling and legal paperwork. And then you’ve got a three months cooling off period once you’ve done everything. Was that your state, maybe? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

19:52
once you’ve been approved by the RTC, you have a three month calling off period. And then you’re allowed to do an embryo transfer.

20:01
don’t know if I knew that, I might have to add that. Cause I’m not sure if Victoria have the other, you know, extra council like that, but I’m not sure if they do have that one. But anyway, I might have to check that one. And an average timeframe, I guess the people offering, let me say, you know, from when a surrogate offers, be it a new surrogate or a known surrogate. Look, two years is probably an average. So one and a half can be done if, if all the appointments line up.

20:22
I can’t give you an end date because some people, there is no birth. there? Kate, I think that’s one of the learnings that we were talking about too, in terms of were there any hurdles along the way? Well, for us, it did take three tries. We probably weren’t convinced. Jodie was convinced it would work on the first.

20:36
time and unfortunately it took us three. Got to be prepared that it may not happen at all. We were just very lucky. It worked on us near third time lucky. Yeah, third time lucky. Yeah. And so yeah, there could be multiple embryo transfers and there’s still no baby, isn’t it? And that’s really hard for the whole team if you know each other beforehand or not. Yeah. Because surrogates come into this wanting to do this. Yeah. They don’t want to give up until they’ve done what they wanted to do and give you a baby. Yes. Yeah. And you’re obviously emotionally invested in this too, but you’re conscious of the impact it’s having on the surrogate and her family.

21:06
so it’s complex isn’t it? It is yeah and it is definitely a team event. Yeah right any sort of extra insights on that one like? Just remember it’s not between just you and the surrogate it’s also your surrogate’s partner. Yes. And family as well.

21:20
You said it was a team event? Yeah. Well, also from my side, my family, you know, said to Jodie, if you need help, us. If you need anything, just let us know and we will drop everything and come over. Me knowing surrogates that they are very bad at asking for help. Did she ever take them up on that offer? I think once or twice, but it was just probably to look after Tyler when either we couldn’t, because we also

21:44
went into lockdown. Oh yes. Not ideal. And Gerrard’s parents couldn’t come down from where they were and Jason’s roster changed as well. what she thought she might get from her side.

21:57
and unfortunately couldn’t have because of COVID. Yes, and so that’s a really good advice too for people that have a village of people who can look after the surrogates children, that they’ve got a relationship with them because that is the practical support that they might need. You can’t carry the baby for them, but you can help carry them and their journey, I suppose. That’s a good point and got to consider COVID because it’s still here. Yeah, because unfortunately at one point Cole and I were in isolation so we couldn’t actually leave the house.

22:25
So we missed, I think it was one appointment that we couldn’t go to. And so Jodie would just send us videos and things and then we had to wait till we were allowed out of the house. Yeah. And that’s not part of the emotional journey you expected in that pregnancy. You wanted to be there for it all. Yeah. And I think Jodie also wanted us to be there to be able to feel Alison when she kicked. Kick for Jodie, but as soon as we were around, nope.

22:50
And so she wanted to share that with you. So yeah, it’s quite an emotional journey. And so you were conscious of Jodie’s disappointed because she’s not getting the journey that she wanted. You’re missing out, but you don’t want to put your disappointment too much on Jodie because it’s not her fault and complicated, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. Right.

23:07
And so that’s why I think it’s valuable, really proud of the SASS mentor program that we’ve got so people can hear from other people that have done it and hopefully yet to have people to talk to. Maybe one last question here. So the anonymous says, the surrogate get Medicare rebates or private health insurance? I’ve heard this, some things are excluded for surrogacy. Did your team, it through the private or the public health care system? We went private. The majority had her own private health insurance. She still had her maternity cover. So that covered the majority of her things.

23:37
trust the transfers were covered by health insurance or Medicare. that’s sort of an And that’s nationwide. You mentioned surrogacy and do an embryo transfer full price. You make do it just in a normal couple, do transfers, you you get your Medicare rebate. That would be one thing in my lifetime I would like to see changed too. For those new to that, so it’s the surrogate using her private health because she is the pregnant person. The IPs don’t get obstetrics, like it doesn’t come under their private health. If the surrogate already has private health but she doesn’t have

24:06
obstetrics because perhaps she had her kids quite a long time ago, then perhaps the IPs would pay the difference from the bit that’s the top up part. But then during pregnancy and birth, were there Medicare rebates then Kate? I believe so. Yeah, I’m just, just, trying to remember. Yeah, I believe so. Cause yes, I would pay for it and then Jodie would get the rebate and then she would transfer the rebate back to me. That’s right. Yes. So then once Asura gets pregnant, she’s sort of essentially treated just like a normal pregnant woman.

24:36
who would get Medicare rebates. So once you’re pregnant, Medicare kicks in. But yeah, so that sort of answered that one. So Kate, just to sum it up then, any parting words of wisdom for anybody listening here? Just keep in there because it can happen. We are parents to a beautiful toddler who’s running up and down the hallway. It is possible. Just believe that it is possible. Wonderful. That’s fantastic message. Just believe it can happen and keep at it.

25:03
Thank you for sharing your time with me for this episode. If you’re finding these episodes helpful, please share them with friends. If you’d like to see the images mentioned, head to our YouTube channel for all of the recordings. If you’re looking for more individualized support, consider joining SAS, Surrogacy Australia’s support service, so you can be connected with a mentor and also with me to help guide you on a journey. You might think of me as your Siri for surrogacy. Until next time, welcome to the village.