Episode 94 – Fiona – surrogate

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Thanks for watching!

00:14
Welcome back, or if this is your first time, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series with me, your host Anna McKie. My guest on this episode was a co-host on the regular webinar series that I run. Those one-hour webinars are free and will take you through the surrogacy process in Australia. You will hear from a surrogate or parent and there are opportunities to type in your questions and we will try to answer them. You can find upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org

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This episode is from the archives, recorded in December 2021 and features Fiona. Fiona birthed as a surrogate in New South Wales in April 2021 for a couple who were initially strangers and are now lifelong friends. They had a little girl, Ari, and her two dads are Josh and Jack who were in Sydney and are now in Canberra. You can hear from one of the dads she carried for, Josh, in the previous episode, 93. There are lots of great insights in this episode and lots of laughs.

01:14
We talked about, Fee’s quick labour and birth, how do you know if your surrogacy team is the right one, especially since Fee was chatting to different IPs, intended parents, before Josh and Jack, a good motto to cope with the tough times, and why would anyone want to be a surrogate? Some of these questions were typed in on the night, so I’ll use that as an opportunity to mention that you are absolutely welcome to do that. The webinars are approximately fortnightly.

01:40
And not only do you learn about how surrogacy works in Australia, but it’s a chance to ask questions which might be specific to your own circumstances. I hope you enjoy this episode. So I guess we’ll head over to Fee now and see what her happily ever after looks like for her surrogacy journey. Hello! We’ve got some photos of you here, some heavily pregnant photos here. We looked at the day, so that was on the Saturday.

02:07
first photo and Ari was born on Thursday. So probably one of the last tummy photos I had taken. Yes, definitely well cooked there. Bellies get big, don’t they? And how many weeks along were you when you birthed? Right on 40. She was due Easter Saturday, so second. Yeah, because of Easter and the public holidays, the hospital encouraged an induction on the Thursday before Good Friday. Yeah, right. Okay.

02:34
A couple of days early. To get that all happening. Yeah. Those that joined us a week or two ago when you’re one of the dads that you carried for Josh, he was co-host. So a lot of us heard the birth stories from his point of view, which was lovely to hear. And you were on that night and giving some extra comments too. So I’ll take us to some birth photos here. So anything you’d like to run us through here? It was a quick labour out here? It was, well, we say 25 minutes, but I think the hospital recorded it as 40. It was 25 minutes from…

03:04
first contraction at home and home was 2k’s in an Airbnb down the road. So we got to the hospital very quickly and she was out 20 you know 25 minutes after I woke up and thought that’s more than cramping that’s a contraction. Wow. And head out 25 minutes later. So any long birth plans about support and you know how we’re gonna manage the labour?

03:27
Because my two daughters were quick as well. So my first was three hours and my second was an hour and a half. So our obstetrician said you need to be close to the hospital because they subsequently generally get quicker. And that’s why we picked a place to stay together. Yeah. Less than two K’s it was from the hospital. And usually they wouldn’t let you go home after, um, like the gel for the induction. They would keep you in the hospital.

03:52
to be monitored and I just said, no, we’re going home because I won’t sleep here with you with lights on and you coming in and out and I need rest before this big event. So I insisted and we got home at what 1030 and I was awake by 5am. So yeah, well you got some sleep so that’s good.

04:07
Yeah. And I was just going to say, so I’m listening to Canberra through my phone and Ari’s grabbing my headphones. Yes, I see them in the hand wrapped around the cord there. The headphone cord, not an umbilical cord. Yeah, the headphone cord there. And we were talking before you started about my short jewel being on, which you can see in the second, which they were. And we had a good laugh when, Jules, you can see the midwife on said, okay, it’s time to move to the bed. Do you think you can stand up? And I said, yes. And just pull my

04:37
up please. You’ve got an umbilical cord there love so we de-shorted and just had a towel to waddle that little distance. Amazing and I shared that photo on the right, you know, on the social media post and just oh.

04:54
the words I could put to your expression there, can you remember what you’re thinking or feeling? Yeah, and you asked me that and I don’t remember that instant, but it was probably just the relief of her being out. Her head had come out and then the contractions halted. So I was waiting for the next wave to sort of, not push and force it, but guide her out and everything just stopped because it was so quick. So there was a lull where I’m like, what’s happening? And then, yeah, Jules kind of said, you’re gonna have to push, I think. So we just guided her out. So the relief of her actually being out

05:24
And I’m not sure if she was crying yet then, the boys might remember. I think just the sense of achievement, obviously, like nine months is a long time and 25 minutes isn’t a long time. So it was over before I knew it. And I’m like, that’s it. It’s all done. Like the relief. Yes. I remember that too with my birth with Baker, because we’ve filmed it, I haven’t put the video together. I know once his head’s out, because I said to the boys, there’s a head between my legs.

05:51
So I can see on the video that I think it was two and a half minutes this head just sat there so it sounds like you had a similar like yeah just gonna sit there until we just breathe it out the next surge well done good birth so the boys squatting down with you there that’s Josh with the glasses and then Jack yes they were in by then I called them in I like how you said um it’s head I’ve got his head or

06:12
I think there’s a head. Oh, you get the head between my legs. Because I was on the toilet and I didn’t know she was coming that quickly and I tore and then said, well, that was more than a poo. I think that was the moment that they kind of came running in or I said, get in here or Jules said, get in here. That was more than, yes, well it was. I hope people are laughing at home and enjoying this. I’m laughing because I’m still thinking about the towels incident, which Josh told you.

06:41
two weeks ago. What do you need? I’m like towels. So he’s laying the towels out but the first one was a hand towel. I’m like more towels. He’s commenting more towels. It’s such a funny moment. I love it so much. Like I call the midwife, we need towels for birth. Is that all you’ve got Josh? A hand towel. Come on. One job. Fantastic. And he fanned them out in a knot.

07:05
Hooray! I just wanted a pile of towels I could kneel on! Ah! But they weren’t enough anyway, like, there was only the three in the bathroom, and… there was more like, in a cupboard somewhere. Yeah, but in the heat of a moment. No, you couldn’t find them, like…

07:18
We need them on show. Wow. And then what else we got here? Oh, well, it’s sort of zipped ahead now to, um, Yeah, we’ll jump back and forth. So that was just at the cafe down the road that we would frequent with, um, different friends catching up. Yeah. Because we stayed at the Airbnb for three weeks before her birth. Yes. Because, um, my first pregnancy was two weeks early. My second was 10 days late. So it was kind of not sure when this one would arrive, but I had hoped that she could come early, that it would be earlier. And that’s why we booked three weeks. And even in the lead up, I remember Josh saying like,

07:48
like 37, 36, 37 weeks can be enough. Like there’s people that go into labour at 35 and it will be safe. And then I just remember how frustrated I felt every morning, nearly every morning waking up. Still no baby, still no. And I was doing all the activities. I was doing your curb walking. I went down to the park for a swing on the swings, heavily pregnant. She wasn’t coming at all. Like she was stuck and I’ll be coming when I’m ready. Thank you. So, you don’t have any control.

08:17
I know, right, you just don’t. And then.

08:20
and you holding your little boy mate. Do you remember, did your body ever occasionally feel this sense of peace or just joy? Do you remember having emotion? Both of those things. There’s obviously that connection and that bond but it’s not for me personally it wasn’t. It’s strong but it’s not like you know they’re not yours from the beginning so they’re never they’re never yours to to keep to hold. It was just the joy of um the connection and knowing each other I guess to meet them and like both those photos they’re very similar aren’t they? So she just she’d just look

08:50
me a no and I should have sent you the one oh we didn’t really take, shush please, we didn’t take that many but um the catch up post lockdown so that was five months having not seen each other yes she was playing on the floor with her toys and I was lying on my tummy near her and she reached over and I thought she was going to put my hand in her mouth because everything was going in the mouth this wasn’t that long ago and she just put her hand on my hand oh

09:14
It was like a look at me like, I remember you, like I do know you, just so beautiful. Yeah, seeing that there was a million dollars those moments aren’t they? Oh yeah, yeah.

09:22
It was accumulation of all those cuddles in the neck. So she’s bigger in the second, the first photo than the second. But there was that gap of five months where I didn’t see her from this big to near crawling. Yeah, I remember for myself, sometimes I’d be holding Baker and talking to the dads. Like I wasn’t necessarily looking at him, but it’s as though that’s what my body needed. Like, yes, it was the baby. My body had burst and my body remembered him. I didn’t have a bond with him. I had a connection with the dads because I had to establish my

09:52
bond with Baker because I didn’t know him. Katrina Hale talks about the head heart hormones. Your brain knows that the baby’s gonna go live in that house, but your body doesn’t. And it needs to have the baby from time to time to go, yeah, yeah, it’s safe, it’s fed, it’s okay. And to see that connection, I think that’s important for us to know. And so this is your two girls, when your girls meet their girl. Yes. Pretty special. We didn’t know the gender, so that was exciting for them to come and meet her in person. And obviously they had.

10:20
Yes. And so how old are your girls? Well, they’re all now. They’ve both had birth.

10:25
Yes, that’s their birthday since they’re 11 and 8. Yep, and so old enough to understand and old enough to see the joy that they helped make dads. Yeah. I’m going to read Gabrielle’s here out. Fee, we might be able to answer this one, but I’ve got a couple of other questions I want to ask you anyway. So, Gabrielle’s saying thank you for our webinar and the references. Their IP is from Melbourne and wondering, Victoria, surrogates need to have children to undergo surrogacy unless they appeal to a patient review panel. Is that our understanding?

10:55
If you’re IPs, you can have a surrogate anywhere in Australia, but she must have had children beforehand. If you’re IPs living in New South Wales, your surrogate could live anywhere in Australia, but she doesn’t have to have had children. So, New South Wales, Queensland and SA are the only ones that allow that. Surrogate, and then curious about the meaning for surrogates of giving this precious gift to IPs in creating a family.

11:16
Please do. So tell us more about creating a family. I remember answering this question in the Facebook group when someone, another surrogate said, how do you answer that? When people say, why would you do it? Why do you do it? So I had a few reasons. One of them was because I can, was the first one, but also obviously you want to because you can’t imagine a life without children. So you know how much joy yours bring you. So if you can help give that to somebody else, why wouldn’t you? If you can.

11:43
get pregnant fairly easily like you said and you enjoy pregnancy and labour and you’re good at it so I was all of those things took my own horn so I loved being pregnant I had quick labours drug free I would do it again but I did I was finished my family after two so I originally began thinking I’ll do this for my sister who had three of her own no worries I’ll do it for my best friend she said thanks for the offer but I’ve got sisters that have offered as well um it just made me think

12:13
I have to do it for someone I know, then why don’t I just get to know more people? And why wouldn’t you do it for someone you don’t know if you get to know them and you have a strong connection? Make it a new family, family you choose for yourself. Exactly. You’re going to lead into this question anyway, so I was just going to mention that I did have a couple that I was going to carry for before Josh and Jack, and they were a hetero couple that had a daughter and couldn’t have any more.

12:35
that journey didn’t work out and it made me go back and think, well, hang on a minute, maybe I should go back to the drawing board as you do. Why does it have to be this stock standard hetero couple that-

12:45
already have one child so they’ll understand pregnancy and it’ll be a female who will know the hormones and what I’m going through. It made me just think, actually I don’t think I do want that now. If I provide a child to two guys, they’ll have no expectations, there’ll be no preconceived ideas, they won’t really understand what it’s like to go through it, but I’ll educate them and that’s just how it worked out, I suppose. And there’s also obviously the fact that there’s no other way they’re going to have a child except for adoption or fostering. So this is it. So this is what I want to do.

13:15
and it was a matter of also, I suppose just, I like to say change the world, but you want people to be more accepting and be more understanding and especially for your own children, you’re setting an example and being that role model and saying this is okay, anyone can have kids, it doesn’t have to be this makeup.

13:32
whatever other ideas people have, we’re gonna do it this way. This is love and this is joy and this is family. And it’s the norm, it’s then the norm. I agree. And it’s that showing that, you know, the language in our house then is that Baker has two dads. I too, you have a mum and a dad. Some people have a mum and a dad, but they live in different houses. And so the language that our kids are used to are already okay with that idea of families can look different in many different ways. And it’s that, yeah, again, modelling to our kids,

14:02
need help from other people you need to help them back sort of thing. Now perhaps being a surrogate growing a baby is the extreme version of you know not just opening the car door for someone or holding the chair out helping Nana with her shopping this is an extreme version of altruism but yeah I think it’s a lot of surrogates feel it’s in our capacity to do. Going back then when you because I’ve had the pleasure for those who don’t know of sort of being a surrogate.

14:24
part of your cheer squad and on the sidelines for many years watching your journey unfold. So I knew of those first IPs that you were getting to know. Do you remember then you mentioned that it was perhaps you offered to your sister or female friends when you came into surrogacy then are you saying that you thought you would carry for a female?

14:41
I think so. Yeah. I think it’s really interesting when you start investigating and look out, all right, so I’ve decided I want to do this. Where do I go from here? You do your research. And I think it actually might have been SASS when I set up a membership, the profiling that you mentioned.

14:56
makes you go through these questions and says, okay, well, would you do it for a couple in the 50s? Would you do it for a couple with a disability? Would you do it for a couple with a different culture and background? And you start narrowing these things down and think, well, I’ve never even thought about that. Like, you know, you want to do it for someone, but who specifically do you want to do it for? And do you, if you go, oh, do it for anyone, I’ll go, no, well, no, actually, I do. Yeah. So, so I was guilty of that. Well, I’ll do it for.

15:22
couple and a female that will understand that was in my mind that’s how it had to be. But it wasn’t until that, I suppose, didn’t work out, I became more aware of what else was available to me, I suppose. And I’ve actually since met two lovely ladies who wanted to speak to me about surrogacy. And as you probably have experienced, when people sometimes want to talk to you, you think, oh my God, they want a surrogate and they want me and I’m like, can I do it again? They just want information. Calm down.

15:50
hadn’t met them yet I’d been referred to them through a mutual friend and so between the two of them and they’re married didn’t have a working uterus and couldn’t properly successfully carry a child so you think wow like you wouldn’t you wouldn’t obviously think that like no that two women would also need a surrogate yeah yeah rare but yeah I know of one or two in my five years but um yeah and so that’s it it’s sometimes you know when you hang up your

16:20
that it’s nice to then know that you can help and educate people without wondering, are they sussing me out or do I need to suss them out as potential hookups here? Yeah. Beautiful stuff. So I think Gabrielle, we’ve answered that question about this gift of life. And just on that, I suppose, what is altruism really? Is anything truly altruistic? Okay, we don’t get paid to do this, but we’re paid emotionally. Like, see, I’m sure you can say you’ve gained from this. Absolutely. Have you been emotionally is paid? Yes.

16:50
you will be, like the payment never ends. It’s what you said you’re accepting or you are expecting to be welcomed into the family and have that connection and contact with them forever. Yes. Throughout so. And so do you, I guess if that didn’t happen, how that would feel and you’ve probably watched that happen to women? I have, I’ve heard it from a few and you do the whole that’s not gonna happen to us, that won’t happen to me. I don’t think I’d stand for it.

17:16
I’d just stalk them down and be showing up on the front doorstep going, this wasn’t part of the deal, this wasn’t our arrangement, you can’t renege and change your mind. Yeah, right. Because I was going to say, so how do people, IPs and surrogates are like listening, how do they have that not happen? I’m not sure, because obviously you do all the counselling and things happen and after the fact things change and…

17:37
while you might’ve had a legal agreement or a psychological assessment done that this is the arrangement it’s gonna be, there is no legal grounds afterwards if they decide, I don’t wanna speak to you anymore, your job is done. So on that, having spoken with Josh and having spoken with you, there’s this peace between you that there is no question that this is not going to be a lifelong friendship. It’s just, it is so well established in your team, I can hear and see that, that there’s no question of we’re gonna fall apart.

18:07
change a little bit from time to time but there’s love in your team there. Yeah and if you’ve got to have that in your relationship to begin with which you would have had as well.

18:16
But you just have to start there. How do you get there? You don’t even, I was going to say spend a lot of time together, but you don’t even necessarily have to do that because we had regular catch-ups obviously throughout, even before pregnancy. Because those who don’t know, the boys are in Sydney and you’re in Newcastle, so there’s a bit of distance. So that’s only two hours, but like Josh had mentioned a couple of weeks ago, we spoke every day and the connection that, or the love that you talk about that was established and started is when you’re…

18:42
bonding over and sharing experiences. So Jack was deployed because he’s in the Navy. Oh, it’s just got out. Yep. Was in the Navy. He was at sea for four months. So Josh was at home alone. I was, there you go, February. I knew that. That’s why I hesitated. Anyway.

18:58
We spoke every day about things we’re both interested in like cooking and what TV shows we’re watching and work stuff because I’m not Navy, I’m Air Force, but I could relate to the Defence lifestyle. So I could share on experiences like when I was deployed or when…

19:15
my ex-partner was deployed and I was the one at home. So I guess you build that friendship like any other friendship, but then you’ve got that extra layer with, and I’m also going to carry a child for you. But like you said, in that way, even without the child, we would still be friends. So you had, so you would say it’s important to find common interests.

19:33
And I think like there’s been a lot of couples that I’ve read about and heard about through the Facebook group where it does go wrong and it does not go wrong but it can go bad and not turn out as ours has. And I think why would you firstly, why would you continue in a relationship and decide to have a baby for these people if you weren’t 100% and you weren’t like completely in love and this connection. It’s no different to any other relationship.

20:03
not a hundred percent. My thought on that is that surrogates like us who do it for strangers, or any actually, are very determined women. If we say we’re going to do this, we’re going to do it. And if there’s a needle of doubt and a red flag and you think, no, I’m going to ignore that because I still want to do this. Yes. So that’s why. I want to carry a baby. Then you’re rolling that dice and risking whether this, that relationship is going to turn out. I agree. And you might then.

20:31
start again and I’m too old and all those excuses but isn’t that yeah that’s the same as if you’re with someone and you’re married and you’re unhappy or if you’re not married but you think oh I don’t know if I am happy in this relationship yeah there wasn’t really those moments for us we just it was it was the dream the dream relationship but you did have one beforehand where doubt crept in and it

20:53
didn’t, it wasn’t. So I’m just thinking, is there any advice to give people, if there are IPs or surrogates, if you’re feeling doubt, I mean, it’s not necessarily- It wasn’t honesty. For me, there wasn’t honesty and there wasn’t-

21:03
clear communication, which is basically the same thing. So yeah, without going into details, she kind of wouldn’t discuss something with me over the message, wanted to do it in person, which meant I had to wait a few days. And in that few days, you’re kind of thinking, well, what is it that we can’t discuss? Just tell me right now, because I need to put me out of my anxiety that I’m having over what’s happening in our team. So I think that that honesty and that clear communication, no matter what said, and you have to be yourself all the time, you can’t be playing anyone else, you have to be true to yourself.

21:33
you don’t agree with, you have to say it straight up. And I think with the guys, that common interest of defense lifestyle, but then the commonalities of Josh and I, we would agree on a lot of things and be in like on the same page with things, not everything obviously, but too many things to not notice and not think well that compatibility. And it really is, to me it’s almost like a life partner, but it’s because you’re doing something very intimate together and usually you only do

22:03
who’s gonna be your life partner. So I find that you really do have to have a deep connection or you can be different, but you’ve gotta have, I guess there is a love that grows there and you gotta be prepared to have that space for them in each other’s lives. And that goes two ways, doesn’t it? So I think we’ve sort of answered Gabrielle’s question there about, you know, why might you do it? Tim’s also asked about- Frequency. Yeah, there’s the frequency of communication. So, I mean, people can vary. So what’s the communication frequency like between you?

22:32
and Jack prior to and during pregnancy? Daily, prior, daily, during. Maybe during pregnancy there was a couple of days where it wasn’t daily because there was nothing to report or both, you know, life gets busy. So you don’t, same as any other, again, relationship. You might not talk to your best friend for two days. It doesn’t mean you’re not thinking of them. I used to laugh because we would both apologize when we’d come back to messages.

22:56
Sorry I haven’t spoken to you in two days. I’ve just been doing this, like a check-in. But I never felt unsupported. I always knew that they were there. I might not know they were busy. I do recall a couple of times thinking, hasn’t messaged me in a couple of days, like what’s going on? But instead of thinking about it, overthinking it, I’ll just go, hey, haven’t heard from you, what’s going on, what’s happening? They didn’t come back and say, I’m so sick. I’ve got, I’ve got the, it’s not COVID. I’ve got a stomach bug or I’ve got this and I’ve been in bed all day and I’m like, oh no, now I feel bad.

23:25
Wanting you to help. Well, if it’s asked in the chat section, but then in terms of catch ups.

23:31
before birth and after. Now COVID’s been in the way a bit. Do you have a rough plan for how often you might catch up? The boys have now since moved to Canberra for those that don’t know. I would say every couple of months. I would like, well I think we would both probably like it to be more than that but obviously there’s lots going on and if work’s back to normal for me, I’ve got a lot of travel to be doing around Australia so that precludes kind of going more often than that but we’re planning a visit early Jan and then I’ve already

24:01
of April. So we might even get another one in there between January and April. Yep. You know when you have a catch-up and then you think I can’t wait till April to see you again because then she’ll be one. I’ll be back in February. I’ll be back early March. Yeah so we’ll just all navigate that. Yeah so Tim I’ll just give you an example for my own team there. I suppose yeah building the relationship probably daily like

24:24
I have to say, because when you’re building that new friendship pretty frequently, because we often say it’s a huge investment of time here in Australia.

24:31
Yes, it’s still going to cost money, but it’s massive time investment. So you’ve got to be, this is the model in Australia that may or may not fit for you. And again, during pregnancy, probably nearly daily. And then post-birth, it’s obviously now eased off. Baker’s now 14 months old for us. So sometimes there’s still the group chat. Sometimes it’s more Brendan and I now because he’s the main, like the stay at home dad at the moment, Matt’s in a video tonight of Baker dancing in the bath. So weekly and now are in-person catch-ups probably every couple of months, six

25:01
sort of thing and we live locally to each other. Josh has just added into the chat they’ll travel to Newcastle when they travel to Newcastle to see family so whenever they’re in town they’d make sure that they catch up with Fianna and her girls too. Again this last anonymous one.

25:14
Come to our IP webinar and ask more specifically, longest journey for IPs and shortest journey from wanting a child to actually getting one. Well, I’m afraid there’s no guarantees that a pregnancy will ever work. Some people have, from the moment you meet a surrogate to then taking some time to get to know each other, doing counseling and legals, good nine months of pregnancy, you’re looking at at least 18 months, I would say is a good safe amount. Some people go on this journey for five years with a surrogate, egg collections, transfers, and maybe still don’t have a baby. There’s no guarantee

25:44
mandates. So if you’re looking for more guarantees, probably overseas commercial surrogacy might be a better option there. Sophie, I’m just thinking, you know, as you look back on your whole journey, yes, I know, right? Was there something, you know, I’ll ask the question asked, was there something you learned about yourself during surrogacy?

26:02
I thought plenty of times I’m too old to do this again, but it was too late by then. And then you finish it and think, I’m not too old for this. And you do bounce back. It takes a little bit longer. Just the cliché, you can do anything. You proud of yourself? Absolutely. Good. We’re proud of you. And then what advice do you ever have for intended parents or surrogates that who might be listening tonight and be at the beginning? Well, definitely for IPs, which mine did, role models, treat your surrogate as a queen.

26:32
carrying a child and that kind of doesn’t end after she’s delivered as well. Yep. So just keep that in mind. Sorry, then I’d maybe say don’t be, don’t expect to be treated like a queen because you did decide to do this. So when I left a job once there was someone that had written on the card, just remember when you’re having a good day, like all the good times you’re having at this new posting, I posted you there and then when you’re having a really shit time you asked for it.

26:59
There were days when I had the hectic days that you have and you think, ah, this is too hard. Why would I decide to do this? That victim mentality. And I think I remember saying something to Josh about how I was feeling. And he picked me up again and said something or other. But before he even come back with that or maybe afterwards, I thought, hang on a minute, like, why am I whinging so much about this? I decided to do it. Man up. Like, if you feel the tide going, so I’d have to, you just have to reframe your thinking sometimes and train yourself and be like,

27:29
agree to it so. And it’s a tricky balance isn’t it because you can still have a hard pregnancy and tough down and you’re allowed to wallow and have a rest, do something about it. I think that’s some good life steel lessons there regardless of surrogacy. That’s probably reaffirmed to you your strategies in life about how you handle things I’d say there. So you’ve got to be strong and that’s kind of the job of the counselling to.

27:55
work that out as well. And you have, people have plenty of self doubt. So you might be thinking, I’m not strong enough to do this, but you are and you’ve already signed up and you’re halfway through it. Or yeah, man up.

28:08
So just do it because the reward at the end, it’s only worth it. It’s only worth it. Like every day, like those tough days I’d have, I’d be like, it’s going to be worth it. So by the end it’ll be worth it. And it is every day since is because those photos that you put where you made a family and you made grandparents happen, you, well, you helped you that. They could have just not used somebody else, but they didn’t. They went with you. So, yeah, I can’t think of a better way to end than that. That’s uplifting for everybody. That’s like, it’ll be worth it. Man up, do the shit. Yep.

28:38
Life according to feed, people. We heard it here tonight. Mic drop, I’m out. Feel free to PM me with any questions. I will happily chat to anyone.

28:47
Thank you so much for joining me. On our YouTube channel, you will find many other episodes, as well as the images mentioned in this webinar. If you’re looking for more resources, check out the show notes for this episode and consider joining us for one of our webinars so you can have your questions answered on the spot. Please subscribe to this podcast if you found it valuable and share it with someone so they too can benefit from this conversation. Until next time, welcome to the village.