Episode 142 – Cheyne – gay dad

Welcome to Surrogacy Australia’s podcast series. I’m your host Anna McKie and my aim is to raise the level of awareness of surrogacy through these conversations. This podcast is a recording from a webinar that I host and you can find more details about those and upcoming dates on our website at surrogacyaustralia.org. The webinars are free. Go for an hour and we’ll take you through how surrogacy works in Australia. You can ask questions, typing them in anonymously if you prefer.

00:41
and you hear from a co-host who has navigated surrogacy in Australia, either a surrogate, a gay dad, or a straight mom. This episode, recorded in February, 2026, features dad through surrogacy, Shane. When Shane and Chris from Queensland decided to start their family, friend and former neighbor, Laura, stepped up with an incredible offer to carry their child. While she originally offered to be a traditional surrogate, a close friend joined the journey as an egg donor.

01:08
allowing the couple to create embryos using both of their DNA. In late 2025, their son was welcomed into the world by their village of friends and family. You can hear from his surrogate Laura in the previous episode number 141. I know I say I love all episodes, but this one after gosh, five years nearly of doing these webinars had so many key points and some that hadn’t really been talked in depth before. Let me summarize some of them for you. We talked about

01:35
The importance of counselling with an experienced surrogacy counsellor to challenge the team. Considerations when your surrogate is single and to discuss what happens if they find a partner during the journey. The language of the legal agreements can sound transactional and harsh, but talk with your surrogate in depth so she knows that supporting her will be your priority, regardless of the wording. Needing two egg collections with their egg donor to get enough embryos and how that might leave the surrogate feeling if there is limbo.

02:03
How to include the children of surrogates in the journey, as well as the ripple effect of surrogacy out to the family and friends of both the surrogate and the intended parents. Advocating for yourselves with the hospital, especially for private rooms for the IPs, intended parents. The reactions from friends and family regarding the surrogate directly breastfeeding. And the sensitive nature of discussing with your surrogate that the transition back and forth between breast milk and formula is causing bubs to have upset tummy.

02:30
And then in deciding the title for this episode, there were so many one-liners that I could have used, and so here was my collection of nine. It’s a delicate conversation to have with your surrogate. You have to voice yourself. Don’t retreat. Surrogacy is stretching the friendship to a new level. It can get really awkward at times. Trust that things will change. Make sure you’re listening. Don’t dismiss it. If it’s not going to damage the outcome, don’t worry about it. Approach everything with an open mind.

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and what things are you not willing to compromise on? I hope you enjoy this episode.

03:05
Take us back to the beginning, Shane. How did you find your surrogate Laura and how did you decide on surrogacy in Australia? I guess it was a bit of a long journey. yeah, a long time ago, Chris, my partner and I attended a SASS webinar just to get a bit of an understanding of the whole process. You provided a really good coverage of all the activities that need to happen. We kind of walked away with that with the understanding that we weren’t big fans of surrogating. So we found it really difficult to kind of be proactive members in a Facebook forum.

03:35
of using surrogacy within Australia, we weren’t that big of a fan of overseas surrogacy at the time just because of the poor negative image. We did have a couple of options that were open to us with Chris being uh a Canadian. We felt that that whole process was a little bit disconnected and we kind of really liked the idea of somebody actually coming forward and offering their own body for the process. It’s kind of like you want to be able to trust the person that’s bringing your child into the world, but obviously everybody’s going to have a different expectation.

04:05
or experience around that. That was just our preference. But luckily enough, we discussed the topic with friends and family, as you kind of noted, and I think we actually took that advice from you. And a lot of time did actually pass. We were ready to pretty much move to Plan B, which was adoption. And on that day, we’re actually meeting with Laura, one of our old neighbors. um

04:26
As we were all getting ready to leave, she kind of awkwardly walked over to us and she was just like, um, I don’t know how to approach this, but I want to be your surrogate. And Chris is a chatterbox and not a person to be shocked or go quiet. And he was speechless the whole ride home. Laura was kind of shocked. She was just like, have I done the right thing?

04:50
I expected you to be a little more excited about it. It’s kind of surprising how these moments kind of catch you off guard. obviously, we’re also like a couple, we also needed an egg donut. And luckily enough, another friend came forward as well for that part of the process as well. And so, yeah, that’s a great example of how you had been spreading the word and letting friends and family know and little did you know it had been simmering away in their thoughts, even though it felt to you like there’s no action.

05:20
Yeah. At what point do we, do we move to plan B? It’s probably a good opportunity for me to say I had Laura on as a webinar co-host recently and her podcast episode, it will be back to back with yours. Hers is already published so people can check out Laura’s side of the story and put the two stories together. So you were gobsmacked and grateful and wowed particularly as you just made that decision to go, okay.

05:44
this is not gonna happen in Australia, let’s pursue other options. Yeah, I remember her just telling us like she’s been dwelling on it for some time. So it took her a long time to come up with the confidence to actually come and approach us about it as well. ah So I guess like creating that environment where like you just kind of want to discuss things and like understand like are they truly committed to this idea? Some of those points that you raised is like counseling just to verify like are they actually really understanding what their true commitment is.

06:13
That’s good point because

06:15
It’s one thing to say, I want to do this for you, but to deeply understand the enormity of this journey, physically, time, emotionally, all of those things is quite big. Because I think there’s something about like friends and family, they have a sense of obligation potentially, and they may not actually think through the actual potential consequences that it could introduce. So yeah, I it’s really good. But we were lucky enough that a friend actually came forward and I think that really helped us through the process because we had a strong friendship leading into it. And another thing we often say for teams like

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yourself who knew each other beforehand it means that once the surrogacy journey is done you already have like a template a recipe so to speak of catching up what that looks like because you already had a frequency of how often your friendship would catch up so therefore is surrogates

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they kind of know that that’s probably what you’ll go back to. So this sense of feeling used and abandoned is like, well, no, we’re going to settle back into what our friendship looks like. Whereas opposed to perhaps my team where we were strangers beforehand, we were still navigating what friendship looks like post the project. And so I know this is probably a question for right at the end, but now that you’re quite a few months post-birth, on average, how often would you say you guys catch up? Probably not enough.

07:23
Like, um, I think before Tally came along, um, I, had great intentions to be like heading up every like, um, couple of weeks. Uh, so there is a bit of distance in between us and unfortunately as it is crossing through our city. So it’s, it’s kind of like unpredictable and Tally didn’t really adapt to travel that well. Yeah. Crying throwing up those kind of.

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things that you don’t really enjoy. Maybe over time it’ll change, but it’s distressing for you when it’s your little one. But you’re also not really comprehending the impact bringing your child into the world, how taxing it is. then you have a return to normality as well. Yeah, it just blows you out. What is normal? And that ability in the past to go, right, I’m off, pick up my keys, off I go, walk out the door. That doesn’t…

08:08
happen anymore. It takes a lot of planning. It’s pretty much the adjustment is that I’m one activity for the day. Good point. I suppose there are other ways of keeping in touch though as well through messages and photos. So it sounds like your friendship has continued in that sense. We try to share as many photos as possible, provide updates about how Telly is kind of progressing, like little exciting things, share videos. We probably haven’t.

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called as much as we should at the moment. it was kind of nice to brighten up Laura’s day with just a simple video of what she kind of helped us bring into the world. That’s great. And I know as a surrogate, from the many surrogates I’ve spoken to over the years, it’s actually those things that are the gift. It’s that continued contact of seeing you guys be parents because we helped to make that happen. so.

08:56
I’m sure that definitely brightens her day. then the process, so she offered and then eventually you’re chatting through the journey and you do the counseling and the legals and the IVF clinic. Is there anything that springs to mind to talk about from that part of journey? The initial…

09:11
counselling, I think was extremely valuable. We had Narelle Dickinson, if you’re okay with me calling out people. Oh, definitely. She’s one of the best. She was excellent in the lead up to, and I would say it’s better to have somebody willing to challenge you in the lead up to the process because she made us consider so many things that we had never thought of. think ultimately we went through the process much smoother because of it. It also made us consider like Chris and I both rose embryos.

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um Initially it was only going to be one of us. So just kind of ensuring that there’s kind of options in the future if we really do decide to maybe decide to go down this route again. Have a sibling try for us. Yeah exactly, just having such a clear understanding of where certain boundaries are as well. uh

10:01
Can you an example of any of the tricky questions or the boundaries you’re referring to? Relationships, in terms of like, I’m not sure. I think I possibly know. Not that Laura said this, but I’m going to guess. uh Laura has been a single mum. Yes. Perhaps. And so there might be some, and so at the time you probably did counselling just with Laura um and you two. so, that’s, if a surrogate is single, she doesn’t, there’s no partner to involve in the counselling, but then there would be conversations about what if there’s a partner that comes along during.

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the journey and what’s their level of involvement um and how does that change the team dynamic? Exactly. Yep. That’s my guess. Very good guess. Having somebody provide clear cut guidance with that sometimes like obviously if the advice is coming from you as the intended parent um across the surrogate or vice versa like it can feel confronting but if it’s coming from an expert you kind of stand back and you go oh actually that’s a really good point. Yes you can almost blame

11:01
it on Narelle or blame it on the patient. Narelle said we should talk about this and I have to say that’s part of the thing I suggest with SAS. It’s that third party and so like my check-in emails when people at the different stages of pregnancy it’s like here’s the things teams should talk about at this point in time and you can go oh well SASS says we should talk about that so having that third party it can be really helpful. So yeah I’m glad to hear the counseling was

11:29
helpful. Yeah. Yeah. think the other thing was the development of the surrogacy contracts. That can also be a confronting process. The terminology is very black and white and obviously it has to be, but it doesn’t change how it feels. And I think, yeah, there’s a lot of work to do in that space in terms of like, just make sure that you’re talking between yourselves and working through the language because yeah, I think we hit a couple of snags in terms of how things were written. Not necessarily like the

11:59
understanding of it but it’s it’s so harsh yeah be kind of very interesting. I be right in saying because casting my mind back to my own legal stuff because it’s very law and dry it sounds very transactional and as I believe you can do this you can’t do this but it’s taking away from the feel of the it might say all that in paper in black and white but at the end of the day you’ve got to support your surrogate and

12:21
make decisions and you’re not really going to be referring to the pages of it. Well, it’s said here with the lawyers, we can or can’t do that. You’ve got to then find that balance between, yes, we have to have this legal work here, but at the end of the day, we’ve kind of got to go with the feel of it and read deeper intention. It is so true. I think that could be a hurdle for some teams, especially if they don’t know each other. Good point. And I know over my years, some IPs, if they’re not involved in the community and meeting other IPs and listening to other stories, they feel that well, because the lawyer

12:51
lawyer is the person we’re paying the most money to and they’re very experienced in this world, we must do what the lawyer says instead. Yeah and I think we fell into that trap a little bit as well. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We just trusted what the lawyers were presenting.

13:05
And we were hoping that they would work it out between themselves. Because we obviously had that understanding that like it’s not legally binding other than the financial aspects. So we weren’t actually that concerned about some of the language maybe they were using. we let it slip. Good point. It’s all a lot of light isn’t it? I think I said to you, think this is webinar 140 or something. And I love that you’re really bringing to light some of these points about the legal work, about how heavy it can sound.

13:34
but trying to find the real meaning through it all. It’s really valuable to hear the journey you’ve been on then. So then I guess, well, anything else to mention about that or do we start heading towards embryo transfers? oh Yeah, we could probably move to embryos. Yeah. Yeah. While you’re doing all of these counseling legals for surrogacy, you’re also at the same time doing some of the counseling for the egg donation and creating the embryos and putting them on through quarantine and that sort of stuff, yeah?

13:58
Yes, yes, which actually delayed the whole process quite a bit because we didn’t realize how much time kind of had to be allocated to that process. We didn’t really consider how many rounds it might take for us to actually have a successful number that we felt comfortable then to continue into the training process. Did you do two or three rounds with your egg donor then? Luckily, we only ended up having to do two. So the first one didn’t go to plan. I think that really hit us. oh

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Because then we were kind of like, are we going to experience this all the way through everything that we do? And luckily the second one was a really good collection and we had a lot more success. So kind of left Laura thinking like, oh, hang on a sec, like what’s happening here? Like, is it taking so long? uh I’m like, oh yeah. she going to leave? Is she going to decide not to be our surrogate? Yeah, It leaves you with so many complicated feelings about.

14:52
It is. Because you just want to get through it as quickly as possible, obviously. Speaking of the time then, if you think back to that month when Laura offered in the car park to then the month of when you had the embryo transfer. Was it about 12 months? I can’t remember what Laura Yeah, I think it was 12 months. It was sitting at about that because yeah, there’s so many processes, counselling, legal and egg collections. Yeah. Yes. My team had to have two egg collections as well from our egg donor. So

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And having been an egg donor myself, I know because sometimes the donors are the fertile people as opposed to IVF clinics dealing with infertile women most of the time. And so they’re…

15:28
they’re sometimes a bit cautious with egg donors because they don’t want to over stimulate them. And so sometimes that first collection is low numbers because they’re trying to work out the protocol of how high the levels of the injections they need to give the donor. And so they often get it better the second time round. So you’re an example of that, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s a really good point. I that was our experience. Yeah. application of the medication.

15:52
to get it right balance, Yes. And so we’ve got some beautiful photos to share with us here and so I guess we’re going to talk through what’s happening in each of these. Is this out at the front of an IVF clinic? ah Actually that was a scam photo I think. I think that might have been our first or second.

16:07
That’s fine. we’ve got. didn’t catch that one. No, that’s fine. didn’t. I think Laura probably told me that as well, but that’s if you can see your team there. we’ll go through them. Exciting either way. That’s fine. And now this looks like an embryo transfer day. Yes. Yes. This is transfer day. I’m pretty excited. It’s kind of funny where we, there’s a lot of preparation and anxiety and energy, nervous energy. And then the transfer only takes like under a minute. I know. And then they just confirmed that it’s placed in the right spot and then.

16:37
And then it’s left the straw thing that they’ve got. And then Laura gets herself finished dressed and then you kind of all go, all right, so technically I’m pregnant now and maybe you go have some brunch or something, but it’s the strangest thing. is the weirdest. um I think we ended up going to McDonald’s. I think it’s a bit of a law that you go get some Maccas chips after that.

16:57
So we followed tradition. Well it seemed to work because you got pregnant first embryo transfer hey? Yeah yeah we were so lucky. We couldn’t actually believe it so the IVF clinic gave us call and I think unfortunately I accidentally spoiled it for Chris because Laura couldn’t get a hold of both of us at the same time. I felt really bad about that but yeah when you get the news try to make sure that you both receive it at the same time. Because you lost it, it’s on the day of the blood test so there’s so much anxiety waiting for that call or not so yeah.

17:26
And then we move on with the pregnancy. so I know Laura said that she, I think she moved house during a journey at some point. So there was like an hour, a couple of hours distance, depending on traffic. But you came together for appointments and scans and things. Is that right? Yeah. So whenever we could, we tried to make sure that we came together for a scan. I think it was a bit of a time for us to catch up and celebrate a little bit. like, I think each time we went in for a scan, we were just kind of like, are we really doing this? Like, even though we knew what was happening,

17:56
we were just kind of like, I don’t know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Beside ourselves because I think it’s one of those things like growing up, you kind of don’t even consider it an option for yourself. Yes, two guys. Yeah, you kind of take it off the table. So when it does actually come around, you kind of, yeah, you don’t really understand what’s happening. Yeah, not many guys necessarily.

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pause and talk about that fact. But growing up as a gay guy, you’re like, I want to be a dad, but I might never get to be. As we get to the photos of birth, then it probably becomes real as he’s in your arms.

18:28
I think that’s when it really hits you. Oh, so this is Laura and her partner at the time, Amber. Laura’s daughter, yes. I shouldn’t be giving out names. Laura shared them in hers and her daughter was homeschooled at the time so she was around to come to lots of the appointments, I think she said. Yeah, I think it was really important to involve Laura’s kids in.

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the process because they kind of going like, um, mom, what’s going on? in my mind, they’re just thinking like, is this another child that’s competing with us? uh And in some respects, like, I think they actually enjoyed us being around so often because we were coming up for scans and stuff like that and having that much more time with them. But I think it’s really important to invest that time.

19:11
with the surrogate’s children because it’s kind of like they’re going through a really difficult process and they’re trying to piece everything together. Anything that you can do to help that transition easier is going to make Laura happy as well. That’s true. If you keep surrogate happy, you’re keeping your baby happy. Yeah. I mean, it’s not the motivation for it. Yeah. You just want everybody to kind of like go through the process. Did her children?

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have any issues or concerns or interesting reactions that you remember? So we had quite a few discussions about how Laura was going to approach the situation, tell them that she was actually going to go through this process. Yes. Which I think is great. Like obviously you need a bit of strategy and planning behind it. I think she told them a week out before we were going to go up and see them so that they had time to process the information that they kind of received and they could ask questions. Nice. And then when we arrived, they had the opportunity then to kind of like engage with

20:03
and kind of like talk about it more. So I think it was a really thoughtful approach to, I can’t remember exactly how it played out, but I think that’s what we ended up doing in the end. And yeah, I just think it was a really good way to kind of like release that information. Laura also had an X, which that information would also have to be shared with. It’s just managing all those kind of like stakeholders because like it’s kind of something that wasn’t visibly on the table. It’s just something that suddenly all of a sudden started happening. Yes. Yeah. And it’s that as IPs and surrogates, we often go,

20:33
with this plan of we want a baby I want to give you a baby done but then this is ripple effect as everybody else who’s on that journey as you say the children or partner or even ex-partners of the surrogate it’s like they’re the ones helping look after the surrogate when she’s in her home pregnant and tired and it’s like who are we doing this for yeah so having that connection with you guys so that they know the house that baby’s going to go and live in and the parents they’re all as a family essentially helping grow you this gift

20:59
Yeah, big time. Yes, it’s the village, isn’t it? Yeah, the ripple is a great way to put it because yeah, there’s so many people on the periphery that obviously exist within your world. It might take time for some people to digest that information. Oh, yes. It is a hard thing to understand, like why someone might.

21:17
do surrogacy and it’s a great opportunity for educating people. So true and you would have found so many people would have asked you like is she does she really gonna want to keep the baby though are you gonna keep in touch with her all of those questions I found. Unfortunately endlessly. And they probably still do like do you still see Laura like yeah because that’s what I get asked like do you get I I get asked do you get to see the baby like am I allowed to see the baby inside yes.

21:44
And so I found for me, it was actually my family and my in-laws that also they had the reservations about, oh, but pregnancy and birth is risky. Whereas the joy and the excitement came from the parents of the two guys. And so I found that tricky to navigate going.

22:00
As a family, aren’t you proud of me what I’m doing? But it wasn’t probably until I had done it, but because they had the, how’s your family going to cope? How are your kids going to cope? Because my kids were four and six when Baker was born. So it’s like, oh, are they going to think it’s a sibling and they’re going to want to keep the kid? This ripple effect, isn’t it? It’s this, the people on the outer that we have to have all of these conversations with, not just the actual team. So, but speaking of team, you guys.

22:23
had some um maternity photos done? At the beginning I didn’t see a lot of the value in the photos but now I look back at them and I’m like they were kind of like a key part of the process because it’s kind of like documenting our journey in a way and it’s also

22:37
celebrating all of us coming together and Laura obviously going through this whole process. It’s a great acknowledgement. I think it was another opportunity to kind of come together and celebrate as well. basically leveraging any opportunity to kind of like just enjoy the moment. Good, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because otherwise you get stuck in all the processes. That’s true, to pause and take some photos and for your child to look back on and go, you know, that’s me growing in Laura’s tummy.

23:02
those sorts of photos. yeah, I think that’s really important. Sure. And then as we got closer to birth, I know from Laura’s episode that you guys came up closer to where she lives so that you were nearby and doing some beach walks or perhaps try and bring baby on. We have to say nothing helped to bring on the pregnancy.

23:22
So the birth in the end had an induction because again there was lots of logistics because being a single mum and when Laura had or didn’t have her kids there was lots to coordinate but I guess that takes us to the day of birth and so I know that you had an induction. Here’s a photo of handover but you know when you look back at this photo of her passing you your child like what do you look and think and feel when you see this photo? Well first of all being in the bad thing suite it’s a very interesting

23:48
experience especially when things start to kick off but um I just remember Laura being absolutely hilarious she was just cracking jokes yes great yes I’m the same when I birth I talk and yeah yeah I think I was the most nervous person in the room yes it was an amazing process she had a water bath everything pretty much went to plan other than

24:11
the initial lead up. So he ended up rotating just before they were attempting to attach the device on the scalp to read the heartbeat. unfortunately he swam up and moved to the side. So he was kind of breached. Yeah, yeah. It was a fun time.

24:26
crew on hand at the time, let’s make this happen because we don’t know if there’s going to be emergencies later down the track. Right. They were able to reorientate them from that point forward. The birth was just as straightforward as it could be. Right. Yeah. It was just, it just an amazing process. And yeah, you really at all like how it all comes together. Yeah. Being part of it. And then there’s a photo here of everybody on the day in the midwives and a pretty special moment for it.

24:50
everybody in the room. Yeah, yeah. As you kind of said in one of the previous photos, like there’s so many people involved. Yes. So you can see the Doula on the left. She was also our photographer. So she was really vital in the whole process of just making us all feel calm and managing things for us. Because we don’t know what we’re walking into. We’ve never been to a hospital for a birth before. We had an amazing midwife on the right hand side. We’re at the Sunshine Coast Uni Hospital and they were just

25:20
absolutely incredible and uh Laura’s partner at the time was incredibly supportive and stayed with her through the process. is a whole village that comes together isn’t it? Oh big time.

25:31
Yes, and then you get to be dads and the man that you love holding your son, hey? Yeah. Yeah, he was so tiny. Oh my god, he’s grown so much in the last six months. It’s kind of crazy to look back on this already. Yeah, they look, they’re so little. And so then you were in the hospital together for a little while and then this is going home or back to the friend’s house or it was an Airbnb or something. We ended up going back to Laura’s house. Actually at the hospital, I think one of the important things was that we really had to advocate for ourselves to actually be able to stay

26:01
uh on premises because obviously it all comes down to whatever uh resources they have available at the time. us being new dads and Laura just going through her birth obviously, we kind of had to advocate for our own separate rooms and that’s something luckily that they were able to kind of support us with as well. I think depending on the hospital you might have some more challenges around that and I think it’s really important to understand what you might need to go through.

26:28
to basically ensure that you’re best supported in that transition. Yes, well said there because although hospitals are getting more used to surrogacy, this still not very often. And so, yes, you might have to advocate for the fact that you’re entitled to a room, you are the parents of the child, finding calm professional ways to do that as a team and with a lot of lead in time, if you can, is helpful. And so then…

26:49
We nearly finished our photos and we’ve got some beautiful photos here. I know this for those who listening to the podcast, Laura is holding a photo of the handover moment that you guys gifted to her on the last day that you were staying up near her as she’s breastfeeding yourself. So you were comfortable with her to breastfeed him? Yeah, we were. We tried to do it for as long as possible. So we ended up staying with Laura a lot longer than we thought we would after leaving the hospital, because I think we were naive in the whole process. Like we were thinking like, we should be

27:19
to stay a little bit down the road like 10 minutes away but logistically that 10 minutes is still a challenge. uh So it was actually really amazing that Laura was able to have us staying at her house because Tally would be waking up in the middle of night like pretty much every three hours like basically demanding food.

27:40
And so Laura did a lot of those direct feeds while you guys were in the same house. And then I know she pumped milk for a while. Yeah. Yeah. I think we were at a house for about a week and a half, maybe two weeks. Right. And then we continued to stay up the coast for maybe another two weeks. Wow. But at that point, we kind of realized that we needed to kind of actually be in our own space and kind of like start our own journey by ourselves. So was kind of like we want to be home with our dog as well. And start that

28:10
Show Tally to Hazel. yeah, there were those kind of exciting little moments as well. Like coming back to our neighbours and yeah, then we were crossing over everything. But I’m a really funny thing.

28:22
about the breastfeeding was that whilst we were used to it, we were fine with it. It kind of did lead to a lot of those questions about like, oh, is she getting, she’s bonding? Yes. Is she to attack? Yeah. Yeah. Some really challenging situations, like navigating family and friends through that. I found that really interesting. But in the end, Laura was pumping for quite a while and she was doing an absolutely amazing job at doing it. But we started having to um transition her milk to formula, which started to become problematic switching

28:52
breast milk and then formula. Right. It was causing like basically like gastric issues. Yes. And throwing out all that stuff. So what I would say is just it’s a delicate conversation to have obviously. The surrogate’s put in so much time and effort to do it and it’s such an extra gift and you are grateful for the gift but then you’re trying to navigate your child and parenting your child and making decisions for their health as best you can. It’s as you say it’s a delicate conversation. Yeah. You do have to kind of voice

29:20
yourself as well. So don’t always like retreat. Sometimes it is worthwhile having that discussion and it kind of resolves a lot of what would you say misunderstandings. Well said and I think and it’s okay to say no to your surrogate because as friends there are certain times that we’re to say no to each other just in terms of catch-ups or other things and so if a friendship is healthy it can survive these uncomfortable conversations provided they’re done you know in love and respect and kindness. It doesn’t make them easier.

29:50
But I think sometimes if you’ve, in some ways, you’ve had some conflicts in the past, you’ve kind of got like almost a template, a model to draw on to know that you’ll get through the tough times in some ways. yeah. Although I have to say, um surrogacy is really stretching the friendship to a new level. 100%. You’ll be talking about things that you never thought you’ll be talking about. Oh, yes.

30:13
And that’s why it’s called this surrey ship because it’s so much more than a friendship. It’s a very intimate thing. mean, having a baby with somebody is usually an intimate thing with just your partner. uh

30:21
And now you have to involve a friend and you don’t usually just have babies with your friends. So yeah, it’s a lot to navigate. There’s even awkward things like medical histories can get really, really awkward at times, but yeah, you just have to be supportive and like, yeah, respectful. Yeah. Oh, who would do this wild journey, right? It’s just crazy. And then photos of you guys being dads, hey? Yeah. Yeah. He’s so cute. He’s at the fight where he’s starting to rock back and forth, trying to crawl and screaming. Screaming’s a fun one.

30:51
Finding his lungs. Yeah. Our last photo here is of the parentage order and that’s often quite a common thing for teams to all go to court together and that’s what your team did. Yeah, totally. So there’s a bit of an experience behind this one. It probably wasn’t the positive experience that a lot of others might have experienced. I think it largely comes down to maybe the judge that you might end up with on the day. But what I would say is ensure that you’ve got everything prepared before stepping into the process. And obviously SASS is a great place.

31:21
to get that mentorship from and guidance. We were using Facebook groups. Let’s just say you may not always get the best advisor or people may not be most patient with you. So sometimes it’s always good to just be able to pick up a phone and have a chat with someone or send off quick email. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Somebody that you actually trust and have a good relationship with. Yes. A beautiful set of photos that we’ve got there. An anonymous person has typed in and has said,

31:45
when we’re talking about all these types of conversations that you have to have, and some can be uncomfortable, they ask, did your team have to revisit some decisions that had previously been agreed as the pregnancy progressed? And if yes, how did you navigate those situations? Oh, we most certainly did. I think that’s the thing is that you can have your best intentions later, but things will change as you move through the process. Either that’s you’ve got a better understanding of things or you’re exposed to new information.

32:10
Trust that things will change. It’s about how you resolve that. Make sure you’re actually listening. Don’t dismiss it. I think everything should be continually open for discussion. And as you said, even if it’s written in contract, don’t use it. Yeah. Maybe if there was… oh Sorry, I should phrase that little bit differently. If it’s not going to damage the outcome, don’t worry about it. Even if it’s just like, sometimes you’ll be challenged and you’ll have to reconsider things or maybe go off and do a little bit more reading about something or talk to somebody about it.

32:40
but yeah approach everything with basically an open mind. What you’re saying there could almost be relevant for any friendship or relationship regardless of surrogacy. You’re saying open mind, everything can be revisited, everything’s on the table that these are some really good tips generally for navigating relationships I think. Yeah but obviously there still has to be some form of healthy boundaries like if it’s the same thing being constantly renegotiated.

33:06
you kind of have to be clear that like, how is that impacting you? That’s probably one thing that’s probably not communicated well enough is how people actually feel through the process and how it might be impacting their decisions or yeah. And I’m trying to read any subjects that you’re saying. And my thoughts are that as I piece, trying to find this balance between speaking up for what you and or your partner want and feel and any things that you’re finding challenging in terms of, but keeping the peace for your surrogate and navigating that. I mean, it’s healthy to have this.

33:36
discussions, but yeah, you just need to have some boundaries in there in terms of like, what are the things that you’re not willing to compromise on and having a clear understanding of that and make sure that the surrogate also has that understanding. I’m sure when you’re having these initial discussions, you should probably be talking about like, what are the things that we have to have and what are the things that we don’t like at all? And that way you’ve actually got something to draw a bit of a line in the sand of like, are we actually going to work together? Unfortunately, that’s a bit like surrogating, isn’t it? uh

34:06
I it is, yes. It’s that, and you come in with your non-negotiables type of thing, but sometimes you revisit things. But then yes, the pregnancy progresses how people think, you know, handover of the baby might go, or how we all feel about milk, or who’s in the room, or who’s at what end.

34:24
I feel like I’ve gone in a full circle there, but yeah. It’s complex. Let’s just leave it at that. It’s complex, my friend. That’s so true. The other anonymous question was about, did you have calls during the pregnancy or in some ways record your voices so that baby could hear your voices? Ah, so Laura actually suggested we do this, but I don’t think we actually ended up doing it. Yes. There’s a thing called belly buds that’s on their tummy. Yeah. The month in the lead up to the

34:54
actual birth were up there anyway so it was kind of like time to kind of get exposed but we were kind of joking that um i think her kids are listening to uh i can’t remember what the hot song was at the time i don’t might have been k-pop demon so we’re all kind of joking like oh yeah it’ll be uh kind of funny if i you know his lyrics his eyes light up in his head yeah yeah i know that one yes that’s my parent

35:23
Excellent. Originally I was going to record some stories but what I’ve ended up doing in the end was Chris’ Canadian family, um obviously all international offices, and I got them to record their favorite bedtime stories. ah So at night time…

35:37
we can play a bedtime story so he gets to know their voices and gets to know them as well. Yeah, so I thought that was a nice little thing to do. Yes, and it’s those things that take time to do but they’re often the most precious gifts in many ways. Yeah, yeah, well it’s repeatable too. That’s true, that’s excellent. So to finish up is…

35:57
For those people that are listening that are brand new and feeling overwhelmed by this journey, have you got specific advice that you would give to people for how to take that next step? Yeah, for sure. So obviously what was successful for us was sharing the story that we were interested in having a kid. I think that proved more successful than we ever thought it would have. Finding your networks, your support networks. So that’s really important. Whether you join through SASS or if you join the many Facebook groups.

36:24
relevant to your location or even the Australian one. Anything else about your journey and the learnings from that that are worth summarizing? You can’t really put it into words the change having a child has I guess like this is our first one and we did not know what we were in for. ah I just love it each time.

36:43
wake up in the morning, he’s already awake, jumping away, he’s just smiling and then as soon as he sees you, his face lights up. I think that’s the biggest reward that you could ever hope for. it’s kind of like a confirmation that we went down the right path. So that’s the biggest reward for me. And I’m kind of, I’m so grateful that I kind of went on this journey with my partner, but also with Laura and I’m lucky enough that we had a friend that was also an egg donor. So I count ourselves incredibly lucky. I know not everybody will have that same.

37:12
ease of a journey. We were ready to give up so I think just stick with it and be passionate. You’re not selling yourselves but you’re really supporting everybody else out there and I think as you said that’s kind of what attracts people is like somebody that’s actively participating in the community. Thank you for sharing your time with me for this episode. If you’re finding these episodes helpful please share them with friends. If you’d like to see the images mentioned head to our YouTube channel for all of the recordings.

37:41
If you’re looking for more individualised support, consider joining SASS, Surrogacy Australia’s support service, so you can be connected with a mentor and also with me to help guide you on a journey. You might think of me as your Siri for surrogacy. Until next time, welcome to the village.